Don Phelps: Becoming a Pastor

In episode 3, my Dad and I discuss his life as a pastor. What goes into it? How did he come to that decision? 

Transcript

Season 3 Introduction

Speaker 1 0:03

Welcome to Season 3 of Finding my Religion . My name is Myles Phelps . Are you nervous about doing this at all ?

Speaker 2 0:13

A big part of what I want to be going into in my next chapter . A big component of that is willingness to share your story . Growing up , identifying as Christian , I didn't know squat . We're adults , now we're parents . I guess we should be doing the whole church thing , church fire . I could certainly identify that , the alcoholism that was present . It was full blown . What ?

Speaker 1 0:31

would you tell your younger self Be careful of being tunnel vision . Welcome to the third episode of season three of Finding my Religion . In the last episode , we dug into how my dad got to be a pastor . He was working at a water park and then decided that he wanted to run his own church . He went to school . He learned Hebrew . In this next episode , we're going to be talking about how he was able to keep his faith . How did he help people ? What were some of the hardest questions that he received as a pastor ? And do dogs go to heaven ? All that coming up next . Help people . What were some of the hardest questions that he received as a pastor ? And do dogs go to heaven ? All that coming up next . All right , Dad , how are you feeling so far ? This is episode three .

Speaker 2 1:16

I'm feeling good . It's an interesting journey . It causes me to do a lot of reflecting , obviously A lot of it . I don't know that I've done a deep thought process on my journey . It kind of is what it is on a daily basis , but to kind of think back through the years and the trajectory that's brought me here , it's been interesting .

Speaker 1 1:35

Yeah , is there anything that it's helped ? Maybe cause you to remember , like just force you to look into some things or anything in particular ?

Speaker 2 1:43

Really kind of you know the kind of uh , you know cause a lot of what you're doing is asking me kind of the why's behind a lot of that goddamn cell phone . Yeah , I know , you think I would learn by now . Um , you know kind of the why's behind everything . I don't know , I don't know the why's . Sometimes you know it , just it . Just it just organically kind of transpired , happened . So then to be able to kind of sit back and you know , sit back and reflect on it and kind of go well , you know , why was that , or why did I or why didn't I ? Again , it just happened organically at the time . But uh , it's interesting to kind of put some thought to it now .

Speaker 1 2:20

Cool , awesome . Well , we're kind of getting into the meat and potatoes of a majority of your adult life , especially when you had kids at home , which is you being a pastor , and that's kind of what a majority of my life was is seeing you on the pulpit on Sundays . So this is going to be about you know

From Water Park to Pastor

Speaker 1 2:48

, how do we get there ? I think this is kind of what the most most people want to know is how did we go from being like a manager at a water park to preaching on a Sunday ? So I guess where we can start is you know , you know , just to summarize so it you know , I think , where we left off . You know no-transcript mom saying that you , if you could sell the house and everything . But I'm more interested of like you know , you thinking about that before , like you even coming to the point where it's like , oh , this could actually be a career .

Speaker 2 3:44

I think for me it was the phrase I always used was you know , I am so enjoying church work . I'm really feeling very fulfilled , I'm feeling very useful , I'm feeling like I'm a part of a bigger picture when I'm involved as a volunteer in church work . And it got to the point where it's like well , I would sure like to be doing this more , but you know , I have a full time job and that was kind of like , oh well , maybe I could do church work as my full time vocation instead of what I'm doing now , because for me to volunteer anymore there really wasn't enough . There wasn't enough bandwidth , there wasn't enough time in the day for me to get any more involved than I already was . So for me it was like a logical transition to well , then , maybe I can do this full time , which began some conversations with my pastor .

Speaker 2 4:32

I said , you know , kind of the what if you know if I were really interested in doing this , what's that look like ? What's that pathway ? Because I really had no clue . I knew there was schooling involved , you involved seminary , but I didn't know how long that was . So then became kind of the research part of it when would I be going to school ? What does that look like ? Can I , even at my age , even handle the coursework ? I mean , I wasn't 63 like now , but I was several years removed from college . So going back to school , is that realistic ? How do we , you know , how do we survive , you know , financially ? So those , those questions started popping up and I was seeking answers to those .

Speaker 1 5:13

Yeah , that makes sense , I it . It almost reminds me of , like you know , being in love with the game of golf and and wanting to be more involved , and so you become a golf pro . And then you realize , well , there's actually not a lot of money in this and this is more work than I thought there would be .

Speaker 2 5:30

That's probably a good analogy to it . Yeah , I mean , you find something you love and really at that point , I love church work , I love being involved , so I love this . How can I continue to do this and still be able to put food on the table and put a roof over our heads ?

Speaker 1 5:46

Yeah , so this is obviously before the internet and really before I think we had our first computer . Your first year as a pastor yeah , that sounds about right which was like five years , six years after this . So how do you do research in that time after ?

Speaker 2 6:05

this . So like how , how do you do research in that time ? You know it's uh , I got the the uh , the catalog from the seminary

Seminary Life: Second Career Pastors

Speaker 2 6:13

and it kind of lays out when the courses are , and I think I had that thing memorized . I read it so much . I was just like what's involved in this ? So it was a combination of of reading what materials are out there . There's a lot of written materials on so you want to become a pastor , you know .

Speaker 2 6:24

You know we we meaning when I went to school as as a somebody with a family and was leaving us another vocation we were concerned . We were called second career guys . So some guys went to seminary and they came , they went through undergraduate and they were focused on becoming a pastor . So they went through undergrad , then they went to seminary . There were about half of the guys in seminary when I was there that were second career guys . You know , some were far older than me too . I was kind of the middle of , you know , the median , but where I'm getting at there was materials written specifically for possible second career guys . So just reading everything that was out there , obviously the church body had a lot of information Uh , and , like I said , conversations with my pastors . I had two pastors at the time and really that was it .

Speaker 2 7:13

Yeah , it was not like I , you know , I couldn't really go to the library and there wouldn't be anything relevant there . There was no internet , so it's going to be what can I get my hands on ? And most of it came from all of it really came from the church body itself .

Speaker 1 7:26

Yeah , yeah , which is interesting , because you're not really getting a third view on like hey , is this actually the right thing ?

Speaker 2 7:33

Right , yeah , I mean , obviously I've got friends , I've got friends at work and supportive , but also kind of you want to do what the hell you want to do . You know a lot of just . You know we're right behind you , that's what you want to do . But behind the scenes it's kind of like , are you crazy ? A lot of jokes because , again , I was a manager of a water park , so a lot of the jokes were well , when you have your own church , I can't wait to see what the baptismal looks like , you know being a water slide or something . Yeah .

Speaker 1 8:10

Yeah , that's actually a good one . Yeah , um , so you mentioned that you know the second career guys like you that you called them was there . What was the most unique job that somebody had that you knew before they went into , uh , into that field ?

Speaker 2 8:22

Oh man , I'm trying to think of what the most unique was . I mean , it was just across the board , uh , but one that stands out and it was actually a friend of of my brother , so your uncle , uncle Dave , but he was , uh , he was a corporate executive pulling , pulling them big money , uh , and he had , he had headed a couple of years before me . So when I would you know , talking with , talking with my brother about this , he said I actually know somebody who's a high power , big income , career to enter the ministry , enter seminary . And to me that kind of spoke to . Maybe I'm on the right path here .

Speaker 1 9:15

Yeah , like somebody at that level of their career .

Speaker 2 9:19

that's , he's following their passion , following what they want to do . Money aside , you know , as long as you can put food on the table , have a roof over your head , If you're doing what you love and you feel like you have a place , you know you're what you're doing has value , Then you're on the right path . That's kind of how I looked at it .

Speaker 1 9:39

Yeah , that's interesting , I didn't know that . You know to Uncle Dave out of your brothers and , yeah , I didn't know that story . I do remember your brothers coming over at one point and the joke was like what the hell are you doing again ? You're doing what , yeah , and it takes four years to do this . Yeah , I mean you , you had to hear that quite a bit . Oh , I really did , I really did , yeah . So let's talk about , just like a quick overview of the process . Seminary in St Louis , missouri , which I mentioned , is , um , maybe the

First Church and Growing Confidence

Speaker 1 10:25

the biggest , uh childhood neglect that you could put on your son , uh , as a Cubs fan , and taking them to St Louis , um , yeah , I survived . What was the process getting in ? Uh , we talked a little bit about this in the first episode , but , like , how many years were you there ? What you know talk ?

Speaker 1 10:47

about you know the , the third year , all that good stuff so there's an application process , like you know .

Speaker 2 10:52

Any school , any graduate school , had to take the gre , which you know . Uh , you know that math isn't exactly ingrained in our phelps genes .

Speaker 1 11:03

Um real quick on that . I mean , the thing that I always tell people is that you know , every single year , from like junior high to high school , the math teacher would come up to me once you're gonna be like , hey , I'm gonna have to call your parents because you're not doing so well , and be like , yeah , cool , they're expecting the call . And I remember you getting the phone call every time and like , yep , yep , he told us all right , thank you that sounds about right .

Speaker 2 11:26

Anything else for me , no . So I took the gre and I remember the admissions guy called me and said well , we got the results of your gre and your , your , your reading , your comprehension is , it's off the charts . You know you can do great math . Um , thankfully you don't have to use that a whole lot here . So I mean , kind of a joke was , yeah , I could read , so that was what was the most important thing . But anyway , you go through an application process , you get admitted , uh , and then you spend the first two years on campus , uh , just getting all your basic coursework , really getting that foundational stuff , uh , that you're going to need theologically to to function as a parish pastor or other . You know , it could be chaplain . There's a lot of different routes you can go . But then after the two years you get assigned , as it's the term , as a vicar , basically an intern .

Speaker 2 12:14

Okay . So you're going to be sent to a congregation , you don't know where , there's a ceremony that takes place and your name is announced and you know Don Phelps , st Paul , saratoga Springs , new York . So we up and moved , as you know , to Saratoga Springs , new York . As a vicar you are the best way to describe that is as an intern . You're getting to number one . Put into practice what you've learned your first two years . I think most more importantly is then you come back for your fourth year of class , knowing where you still need to bone up to , to really develop some skills , because you've been out , you've been , you know boots on the ground in a parish and if you have a good supervising pastor , they're letting you have a good broad . You know broad experience across the board and what parish life is what you're going to be dealing with . So it's it really makes sense . It's a pain in the ass to have to do that , to have to move that many times , but functionally and educationally it makes sense because you come back for that fourth year and go . I thought I knew all this shit until I did my internship , my bickership , and I realized no , I've still got some work to do here , but you're doing it from a different perspective . You're doing it from somebody who's had some boots on the ground experience , as opposed to your first two years . You're just soaking all this in , not necessarily knowing how it's going to apply in the field . So you do that . So after four years you graduate . So I graduated with a Master of Divinity , so you've got the degree , but that doesn't necessarily make you a pastor , so to speak .

Speaker 2 13:55

You are now eligible for what they call a call in the church body . A call is basically a congregation is going to extend you a call to serve as their pastor . The call process is one where you prayerfully consider that and you either feel like you're being led to accept that call or you decline it . That's for when you're already serving in a congregation . When you're coming out of the seminary . There's not a whole lot . You can turn down a call , but it's ill-advised . Basically , you're being given your first assignment . This is where we're sending you . So for us it was Don Phelps , texas District , st John , athens . And yes , I could have turned it down , but you don't . That's where I'm going . That's where you're going for your first call .

Speaker 1 14:46

Yeah , and I'm assuming if you turn it down you don't get paid right like you .

Speaker 2 14:50

Yeah , you don't get paid um , and you're really going to have to do some explaining as to why you felt the need to turn that down . You know , because the church body is really saying we have

Raising Kids in the Faith

Speaker 2 15:01

done , you know you have . You have no experience in the field , yet you really don't know where you're best suited . We know the needs in that congregation , we know your skill set , we know your personality .

Speaker 1 15:11

We believe that is an appropriate match for you at this time oh , so they're looking , you know , really trying to find the best person , for they really are , yeah they , because you know it's , it does .

Speaker 2 15:21

It's a service to the , to the future pastor . It's a service to the future pastor . It's a service to the congregation to have a match . That's not well thought out . Because , maybe I go there for a year and you know they hate me . I hate them , I'm doing a shitty job . My skills are not good for this congregation . Maybe it's a conflicted congregation . Or maybe they're extremely conservative in their worship style . Maybe I'm very contemporary . I mean , those things all have to be taken into consideration sure that makes sense .

Speaker 1 15:49

Yeah , I never really thought about that . I just always assumed it was just like a numbers on excel . Well , they , they , you know as a seminary .

Speaker 2 15:56

And the joke is , yeah , they , when they . The council of presidents is the group that gets together and decides who's going to go where . And the joke is there's a dartboard of the United States and I was like here's the , here's the Don Phelps dart , and they kind of close their eyes and throw it oh , st John , athens , texas . There's more that goes into it than that .

Speaker 1 16:18

It's really political too .

Speaker 2 16:19

I remember right , Because I remember you had a good relationship with the president of the Texas district and he said you , sure enough , I went to Texas . Yep , mom , and I pretty much knew we're going to Texas somewhere .

Speaker 1 16:29

Don't know where Right . So you mentioned that you're kind of at the whim of whatever pastor you get in that vicar year , that internship year , and I remember that you had a pretty good pastor that was supportive and I remember he loved our family , we loved him . What was the thing that you had to work on after coming back ? What was the biggest gap that you maybe had ?

Speaker 2 17:07

You know I came into it . I was not raised Lutheran , I was not raised in a biblical family . You know I was not into the Bible as a youth , so I still was getting caught . I mean , there are people in the parish that had more knowledge of the Bible really than I did , because they were just they've been ingesting this and studying this their entire life . I was still kind of playing catch up . I was very functional . I , you know , knew the Greek , knew the Hebrew , but I was not a Bible scholar in my estimation . So I really felt I just need to get a better handle of on the Bible .

Speaker 2 17:42

I think that was really , you know , thought my preaching was was good . Uh , my ability to to craft sermons that were not only biblically based but relevant , because that was always a big thing for me . You know I can , I can spout off stuff , you know , for 20 minutes from the pulpit . That's theologically correct , but if it , you know , people leave going . Okay , so what , my my biggest thing was , you know , there always has to be a so what . There has to be something they can put in their pocket and walk out with . I felt I did a good job there . I did a good job one-on-one with people , counseling , advising , consoling , but straight biblical knowledge . Really having a good grasp on that , I think , is where I really needed to do some work , which I did .

Speaker 1 18:26

Yeah , that absolutely makes sense , and I have a couple of like vivid memories from this year . I was in first grade . Paige came along . That was a big thing . I got a Game Boy as a result , so that was a good trade-off for me .

Speaker 2 18:39

That was a hell of a gift for you for having a little sister .

Speaker 1 18:43

Yeah , it was pretty cool . Pretty a hell of a gift for you for having a little sister . Yeah , that's pretty cool , pretty cool . Thanks , page . Uh , we actually still have that game boy . It's in my , it's in my closet , do you really ? Uh , it's still working . Yeah , I'll actually . I think so , because page had it for a while , I think you know she was . She used it , you know , when she was in grade school and then we haven't tried to turn it on and a couple . Pretty cool , I should have got all the games for it and everything , um .

Speaker 1 19:01

But the other thing that I remember is , um , like you had made a rule that and you probably had learned this from from a colleague of like , never using your family in a sermon unless you get , uh , permission from them .

Speaker 1 19:15

And I I vividly remember sitting on the floor in that tiny apartment , saratoga springs , uh , I think the news was on and it was like you know , I forget what I think the Oklahoma City bombing had just happened recently , but it was like all you know bad news in quotes , you know things , things around the world happening . I remember I said you know , dad , why is it ? Why don't they ever talk about the good news . And then it was like just a light bulb went on in your head and I remember like a couple of days later you were like , hey , can I , can I use that ? And then you put it in the sermon of like hey , this is the good news . Like when everything bad is happening around you , this is , this is the good part . So I think you're really good about like taking um what's happening in life , in the real world , and then like turning it into like a good message . Sure .

Speaker 2 19:59

Oh , you got a good memory . I don't remember that . I I had a good memory , I don't remember that . I mean , I remember Oklahoma city , but I don't remember the conversation , nor the sermon .

Speaker 1 20:05

Yeah , no , I vividly remember that that's neat . So so you get your first calling in in Texas . How , how nerve wracking is that to be ? And I think I asked a similar question last time . But I'd like to dig into a little more about like , like what , what do you do that ? That ?

Speaker 2 20:26

first , first day because you're on your own , you don't have a yeah , you really don't . You , don't you , you really it's . For me it's like anything else in life , whether it's a new job , if I'm walking in and I'm a new leader of a team , it's a matter of just getting to know . People talk less , listen more , you know really . So you start meeting with key people in the congregation and for that congregation they had this is a number I'll never forget 889 , because I used it in my first sermon in that congregation because I went through . They've been without a pastor for 889 days . They didn't know that , but I went through and I , as I'm preparing my sermon , I'm thinking , boy , that would be something cool to throw .

Speaker 2 21:04

And the point point of the sermon was you know you 889 days and yet you still function . You were still ministering

Bible Interpretation Challenges

Speaker 2 21:13

to people . You're still functioning as a congregation , doing the things that you needed to do , because God continued to care for you during those 889 days . So kind of along those lines getting to know the personality of congregation , getting to know the people , getting to know the pain points and don't come in and start making changes . You know again today , I think it's leadership 101 . You can come into a position and you start changing things immediately . The uns , the unspoken statement , is where you were doing a shitty job before I got here , which is why I'm having to change everything . So learning , listening , observing , yeah , yeah , uh .

Speaker 1 21:54

I mean , four years is a long time to go to school . Um , was there anything that was surprising that you learned after being called to Athens that wasn't in the coursework ? Or something that maybe was in the coursework but played out differently in practice ?

Speaker 2 22:18

I think having Having people in your congregation who are not raised Missouri Synod , lutheran Church , missouri Synod did not come from that background , but yet they're attending and they may be members for whatever reason . But then having the difficult questions asked in like a Bible study , because they're coming from that part of the country most likely they're coming from a Southern Baptist standpoint Well , we don't necessarily sit around the lunchroom in seminary coming up with , well , I wonder what the Baptist I mean . That kind of thing . That was real life , because it's one thing to sit in the confining within the ivory towers of the seminary where everybody eats , sleeps and breathes , thinks alike . All of a sudden you're now in the melting pot situation . These aren't born and raised Lutherans in your congregation . Some are , but a lot aren't .

Speaker 2 23:09

So being able to navigate people coming from a different perspective which in one sense is where I think it was my background was helpful because I didn't come from that background as well .

Speaker 2 23:22

So I'm able to identify with them a little better and kind of going back to the whole second career , versus what they call the pipeline guys who just , you know , they undergraduate seminary boom , they're a pastor . My view was , you know , while they had a better grasp maybe on some of the theology and some of the Bible knowledge , because they've been tracked on this road for , you know , most of their life they didn't have the what we would call the real life experiences . You know , married , having children , dealing with death , I mean just having a job that's not church related . Some of those things that the second career guys brought in , I think . Some of those things that second career guys brought in I think allowed us to maybe relate a little better to our parishioners , because whatever they're dealing with life-wise maybe I have dealt with that too , because I haven't been doing pastoring my entire life- Right of sales in um and being a pastor because you're you're trying to sell that .

Speaker 1 24:32

This is the way you're trying to convince someone that this is the best way for whatever the end result is that you believe in heaven . Um , do you feel like it's a miss that the LCMS church wouldn't talk about ? Like , this is what the Baptist believed . This is what a Methodist believed . This is how you would handle this conversation . This is why that we're right and they're wrong .

Speaker 2 24:52

Yeah , I think we definitely studied their belief system . So I knew what the belief system was of a Southern Baptist or a Methodist or a Roman Catholic , whatnot . So we had the kind of the black and white nuts and bolts of that . But in terms of real life discussions , you know , I think that's where , you know , having some cross denominational dialogue and maybe some seminary where it's not just Lutherans playing the role of Baptist have a real life discussion , uh , and you know , maybe they've changed it and maybe they do that more . But you know , the fear was we don't , you know we don't talk theology with somebody else who does not walk and talk like us .

Speaker 1 25:32

Hmm , that seems like a miss .

Speaker 1 25:34

Yeah , I would agree , I would agree . Yeah , um , so at this point in your life , my mom is still , you know , a part of , you know , our family unit unit . Rather , one of the questions that she had and we talked a little bit about it last episode was why the LCMS church ? I think that she struggled , not struggled , but she's always wondered . Like you know , there's so many different options and I I think , just based on the past episode , you know it was just like that was what was most available to you . That was the . Obviously we talked about it being the closest church . Was there anything else that led it to you ?

Speaker 2 26:10

No , I mean , that's what got my foot in the door . It was the closest one , but at the end of the day , I really felt strongly that the LCMS church stood on firm foundation . In terms of what they believe they're biblical , the Bible is the . In terms of what they believe they're biblical , the Bible is the inerrant word of God . There wasn't a lot of . There wasn't any , from my perspective , any wishy-washiness , so it wasn't like well , believe this , but you can believe that we either stand for something or we don't , and I like that aspect of it . If you're going to believe , then let's be all in on this and not yes , we believe , but we don't need to believe this part of it or that part . We can pick and choose . There was no picking and choosing per se , you know from my perspective .

Speaker 1 26:58

You were looking for more concrete answers .

Speaker 2 27:01

Concrete answers . And okay , if we're going to say we believe this , then let's don't waver from that . If Jesus is the only way to have a relationship with God , then okay , then stand on that . And they would stand on that . I still respect them for that . I don't believe it today , but I respect the fact that this is what we believe and if it's anything that you know , if there's anything that's that's that is detrimental to that belief system , then that must be bad yeah , how do you feel about that say I know that you don't believe you know really those teachings again , I , I respect , I , I respect a denomination that's that stands and and preaches what they believe as opposed to doesn't .

Speaker 2 27:51

And I don't know if that makes sense or not , but what ?

Speaker 1 27:54

would be an example of the opposite of that .

Speaker 2 27:58

I don't want to single any church bodies , but there's church bodies that , well , you can believe that Jesus rose from the dead or not , and that's okay . That's foundational to me . If you're going to be a Christian , jesus rose from the dead , that our sins have been forgiven , that we have a relationship now with God because of that event . If you're going to take that out , then what are you standing on ? Then ? What is your faith based on ? Again , I don't subscribe to that today , sure , but I have much more respect for a church body that says this is what we believe and we stand on this , as opposed to this is what we believe , but maybe not , or you know it's , we can , just we can dismantle it , but still stand . You know it's . It's that foundational stance that we have .

Speaker 1 28:47

Yeah , like almost burying the lead . At this time you've got two small kids . Like I mentioned , I'm in second grade and your last year of school , Paige , is like a one-year-old at this time , so I have to imagine that you're thinking more as you're going through . Teaching is like how are you going to raise kids ? So , like , what do you remember about how you wanted to raise Paige and I , from like a Christian LCMS perspective ?

Speaker 2 29:17

I think you know , just thinking back , it was I want to expose you to the gospel . I want to expose you to what I believe is the truth about life , to the gospel . I want to expose you to what I believe is the truth about life . Both firmly believe that faith comes through hearing , so that , as you hear the gospel message , faith is actually being created in you and strengthened in you . So I wanted to make sure you both had the opportunity to hear the gospel to be around it , so that that faith could be , to hear the gospel to be around it , so that that faith could be strengthened and nurtured . So you know , church was important , sunday school was important .

Speaker 2 30:01

I wanted because I felt that was and I don't want to speak for mom , but as parents we felt that that's our role , that's a responsibility we have . We didn't subscribe to the . Well , we'll just let them figure out what they want to believe as they get older . We felt that was shirking our responsibility . Again goes to that . If I firmly believe that the only way for you as a child to have a relationship with God is through Christ , then how can I stand back and kind of go , well , we'll let you figure it out Miles , you can . You know you're a second grade or third grade , you know eventually you'll get to a point in life where you can figure that out . Well , god forbid what happens if you get hit by the school bus tomorrow . So now I didn't do my job as your parent , preparing you for that event , so it was a responsibility that we took seriously .

Speaker 1 30:55

Yeah , that makes sense . You and I have talked over the years about the sense of guilt that you've had for , you know , teaching confirmation

Finding Purpose in Ministry

Speaker 1 31:06

and like not presenting other options , and I don't want to turn this into a podcast where it's me asking you a question and then me saying , like , well , do you regret that ? Because most oftentimes , the answer is going to be yes . But the positives of this is that you've been able to like learn who you are as a person , and you wouldn't be able to have done that had you not gone through this . You and I wouldn't be able to have , like , a really cool open conversation where I'm finding out more about your life . So I want to make sure that I say that and it's not you know , just us going back to like well , do you regret this ? Do you regret this ? You're at this . You probably would have done something differently , and I think that's interesting . So I don't want this to be like do you regret this ? You should have done something different . It's more , you regret it . So , like , what would ?

Speaker 2 31:58

you like . What about it ? Do you regret and like what ?

Speaker 1 31:59

would you have done different , if that makes sense , I just want you to like understand that .

Speaker 2 32:02

No , and I , and I appreciate that and I respect it because you know , I mean , I think any of us , if we're honest with ourselves , if I ask anybody well , would you go back and do something different ? Well , hell yeah .

Speaker 1 32:13

There's a long list of things that I would do different .

Speaker 2 32:15

Can I go back and do it different ? No , I can't , I can't . But I do have today and I can learn from , maybe , things that I would have done differently in the past .

Speaker 1 32:27

And I think it's how we grow as individuals . Yeah , yeah , I think I mean , for you know me and Paige , like we always knew that our parents loved us and that was the most important Details are a little bit you know less so where it's like you know I would , I'd rather have not had to go to church every Sunday . Yeah , sure , yeah , really really would have liked to have not had to do that . So for for you , like when , when you think about the , the way that religion in general was presented to children , but specifically your children , what would you have done differently ? Like if you thinking in 2025 , don Phelps , what is the best way ?

Speaker 2 33:15

You know , I think it kind of goes back to , I think , a previous episode where that aspect of not having tunnel vision , I think I would have and this would have been difficult as a pastor to have done this for my children from a perception standpoint , okay . Well , you don't believe what you're preaching . Now you want your kids to start attending different congregation , different churches and maybe get exposure to some different theological perspectives . That's the answer to your question . I would love to have had you been exposed to different theological presentations , different , some different belief systems . I think that's healthy for all of us . So I think that that's one thing I would like to have done differently .

Speaker 1 33:59

Yeah , I think that's completely fair . I mean because it's you know again , we're living in the age of the Internet where you can find this stuff out . You can go virtually and attend a service if you wanted to . But this is kind of before all that , where the way that I grew up was that we're right and you're wrong and there's no like that concreteness that you were talking about . The thing that kind of drove you to the church .

Speaker 2 34:21

Very much so . And again , this side of life , looking back , I'm trying to get my words here . We were right . All others were wrong . So if I know in my heart , believe at the time what we believe is right , then why would I want you to go explore anything else that in my heart I know is wrong ? That's where I was at that point . If I love you , I love my children , I want what is the best for them and what I believe the best for them is what I in my heart know is right and correct , then I don't want to expose you to stuff that I know is wrong . I'm not there today , but as a parent at that time , that's where I was .

Speaker 1 35:14

Yeah , perspective , it's all about perspective . Why are there so many different versions of the Bible ?

Speaker 2 35:23

There are . I wouldn't know if I would say versions . There's different translations , uh , and where it all began , you know , back in . You know , martin luther was the first one to have to translate . He was german . Uh , at that time the bible was for the well . Even further back , the bible was only what the clergy had access to . They're the only ones and basically it was . We know the bible . It's in a language we can read . We'll tell you what you need to know , don't you ? Don't you worry about it . We'll kind of let you know what you need to know martin luther hundreds .

Speaker 2 35:57

Yeah , it's early 1500s , uh , late 1400s , early 1500s , uh . But martin luther the first , he was a roman catholic clergy who , uh , there was a lot of shit going at the time . There was a selling of forgiveness , indulgences , so forth and so on and he's , he basically says , whoa , wait a second , what ? What's being taught ? And what I read for myself in the bible ? That shit's not adding up , it's not , it's not the same .

Speaker 2 36:24

So he went to translate . He translated the Bible into the vernacular of the people . For him that was German , so it was translated from Latin at the time into German so that the common people , the everyday people , had access to it . That's really your first . And so making it available for people to read and understand on their own . That continued to take place . The King James Version was an English translation so that people who didn't know German could read it in their language . So it continues to happen .

Speaker 2 36:57

Today we have different translations that most of them are true to the original text . It's just a matter of how can we convey this and maybe in more common language , everyday language , the Revised Standard Version , which was the Bible when I was growing up , there was either King James or Revised Standard , both of those full of these and vows and all that stuff . Well , I remember as a kid and we had a Bible in the house . I started reading and I go this shit makes no sense to me . Yeah , this is not , this is not how I talk . So then you started getting other translations to make it in the language that people can understand .

Speaker 1 37:35

Got it and follow up question how many times have you read the Donald Trump version of the Bible ?

Speaker 2 37:43

Let me think Zero , the one he holds upside down ? Yeah , yeah that one .

Speaker 1 37:55

Yeah , yeah the one where he uh says his favorite book of the bible is two corinthians . Yep , yeah , just how they said it .

Speaker 2 37:58

Yeah , two corinthians , yeah okay , I won't , I won't continue down that road um , how so ?

Speaker 1 38:07

I mean I ? I think the answer to this question is just what we talked about in terms of translation , but why are there so many different interpretations of of what it's saying ?

Speaker 2 38:15

I mean , it's obviously thousands and thousands of years old written yeah , and when you're in , any time you're translating from an original language . So if you're trying to translate the Old Testament from the Hebrew or the New Testament from the Greek , what it said in Greek , how do you make that true in English ? How do you make that to be a correct translation ? And sometimes this is kind of a new . There's some words that are in Greek that there is no English version of that . So it's that kind of and that's where the biblical scholars and those who do this , you know how do you , and that's where sometimes it's a literal translation . Sometimes it's a a more nuanced translation , again with the , the point being or the goal being that the reader has an idea of what the original intent was .

Speaker 1 39:05

Yeah , it's it , it's always . I think as I got older , you know , after after college and started thinking about maybe it's only the past , like five or six years , honestly I've started to think more deeply about , like what the Bible actually said and I think I struggle with , even today , the fact that a lot of congregations will say , um , you know , being gay is a sin , you're not born that way , you choose to be that way , so that's a sin . But then in another passage of the bible it can talk about if a slave disobeys you , that you have to beat them over the rod or beat them over the head with the rod . So , like , how , like as a when you're talking about this book that everything is based on , how do you square when the Bible is at odds with kindness ?

Speaker 2 39:55

love through seminary . One of the basic principles of hermeneutics , or the studying of the text , is let scripture interpret scripture . So if you see a passage , it's kind of like this makes you turn your head Instead of ruminating in your own head well , is there any place else in scripture where that topic is talked about ? You let scripture interpret scripture . The other thing that they would teach is the context . You know , contextually , what's going on in the bigger picture in this book of the Bible Is it , is . It is a literal . You know , book of revelation is a prime example .

Speaker 2 40:39

Book of revelation is is apocryphal writing . That was very prevalent at the time . So it is steeped in code and these nuanced phrases not meant to be literal . So the heads of the beast and things like that number , 666 , that was all the language that was very typical for apocryphal writing . So that's where the study , that's where the theological study helps you to kind of okay , what's going on in this book ? This says this . That contradicts over here . But this was not meant to be literal in terms of how it was written . Yeah , now do I still ? Yeah , I mean go ahead . I mean there's still some places where you know your point about homosexuality , I think is a prime example of yeah , there are some definite places , places where the two do not line up .

Speaker 1 41:31

It's . I mean , in a way , it's kind of beautiful to to have something that is written by so many different people over so many different years that can then explain itself . However , that's also extremely dangerous when you're like there's , if you're not an expert , you you can interpret , as we've seen , you know , through the last hundred years , and that's where the danger and that's what we see happening in modern day Christianity is .

Speaker 2 41:58

You know , there's something to be said for being a scholar and for really doing the deep dive , understanding that piece of literature , understanding what is going on and why this book is literal , why this book is is more apocryphal or or symbolic . But yeah , you can , you know all was said . You can , I can , I can pull anything out of the Bible to back any cause or any thought I have or any opinion I have , and we see that happening a lot .

Speaker 1 42:27

There's a really good follow that I think you would like . His name is Dan McClellan . He's a biblical author . He wrote a book the Bible says so . Just a quick author note . I'm an idiot . It's actually called the Bible says so . Pretty simple title that I messed up , sorry , dan . Back to the show . It was number seven , I think , on the New York times bestseller list a couple years ago . But he has a tiktok where , um , he essentially will put up a video of a pastor preaching or somebody you know saying something , and he'll be like hey , this is why this is wrong in a very like monotone , factual way and he points to the exact scripture and like I so appreciate that because it's not , it's not , it's not taking anything else other than like what , the , what the book is saying right , you and I are both big fans of the west wing , but I always think of the the scene with uh president , uh bartlett , where he's confronted by a uh , a very conservative .

Speaker 2 43:27

Um , I don't know if she was a reporter or what , but anyway she was in charge of the uh it was an alliance , wasn't , or some group , yeah , yeah . So she's challenging him on uh , on the , on the uh topic of homosexuality , and he just starts script . You know quoting script . Well then , she does that mean I should be beating my wife , when she doesn't ? He just goes through a whole litany of things and it's uh , it's , it's good television , it's excellent writing , but it's also spot on accurate .

Speaker 1 43:58

True , yeah , and he was . He plays a devout catholic on that yes , exactly , there's also an interesting , uh , dichotomy between those . Yeah , yeah , um . So , getting back to like your , your work as a pastor , what , what kept you engaged in your faith journey ? How did you , how did you have the energy and the stamina to , to be the guiding post , essentially for those that were a part of your congregation ?

Speaker 2 44:37

was fed by this , this overall belief that I was , that I was helping people , that I was having a positive impact on their lives . Um , to be able to teach something and see the light go on . Or to have somebody come up afterwards and you know I better . But you know part of it's an ego-fulfilling prophet . They have somebody come up and say you know the way you taught that I now get it . Well , it's hard to not feel good when somebody says that to you , but then knowing that what I was teaching , in my estimation at the time , was having an eternal impact on them , that's what kept me . That's really what kept me going .

Speaker 1 45:08

So not only helping the person in their mind wrap themselves , but helping their soul .

Speaker 2 45:13

Exactly .

Speaker 1 45:14

Yeah , what are some good things ?

Speaker 2 45:19

maybe that you've taken from your time as pastor going to seminary that you still use today , anything that is like even it doesn't have to be even religious , but anything that that you still , maybe tools in your tool belt that you have I think and I don't know if it's tools from seminary or if it's just more of my makeup but you know , just the ability to have empathy with people , to be able to sit down with them and not not say a damn word , but just to be able to have that unspoken connection to know that I'm here with you . I use that constantly , obviously in the ministry . It wasn't so much what I said , it was just the presence and the unadulterated empathy and concern and care for that person . I think I still use that today and those are skills that I was able to hone even more during my time in ministry . Any kind of interaction with people . I think I look back on on the uh , the building

Tough Questions: Heaven and Eternity

Speaker 2 46:15

blocks really being . You know my time in the ministry .

Speaker 1 46:18

Yeah , that makes sense . Yeah , I mean especially in in recovery . I'm assuming talking to people that might be new to recovery or relaxing .

Speaker 2 46:25

You know , whatever it might be , I and you've heard me say this a lot , but you know those listening haven't heard this before . But you know I always used to tell people that . You know I loved funerals , right , yeah , I love funerals because as a funeral as opposed to a wedding , a funeral is was a situation where people were hurting . They were and they were looking not necessarily for answers although sometimes it was answers but they were just looking for kind of that , that , that moment of needing to be cared for and comforted . And that was a prime time for me to proclaim what I felt to be was the ultimate of comfort for them . You know , to proclaim the gospel . That was a rubber meets the road event for me .

Speaker 2 47:13

Whenever there was a funeral , the flip side of that was a wedding . Weddings are obviously fun , they're joyous , it's a great day for the couple . But many times this is my opinion it was a three-ring circus too . It was about everything other than whatever the message was that I was going to proclaim . That's why I didn't put a lot . I put time into the message but it wasn't long because I knew damn well that maybe two people out of the 200 were actually listening to a word I had to say you got to get to that point . They were waiting for the open bar at the reception and I knew that I wasn't kidding myself . That was not an audience that was ripe to hear something that was going to make an impact in their life A funeral . They were all ears .

Speaker 1 47:57

Yeah , you just love , love , loved when people died .

Speaker 2 48:00

Yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 48:05

As a pastor . You were a pastor . For what Was it ? Eight years , no , 10 years , 10 years , yeah yeah , yeah , I think it's just shy . 10 um , what was the most difficult question that you ever had to answer ? Either in like a bible study or you know people new to the church , any sort of meeting ?

Speaker 2 48:25

grandpa dies . Grandpa . I had never seen in church , right grandpa , from what my conversations may have been , because I would go and visit grandpa quite a bit . This is in theory . This is an actual person , but and the question would be , after grandpa dies . So grandpa never came to church . I don't think grandpa believed in jesus is's grandpa . Is grandpa in heaven ? That's a tough-ass question .

Speaker 1 48:56

Yeah .

Speaker 2 49:01

When you're being asked by the granddaughter or the widow or whoever , and I , you know my pat answer , and that pat sounds like it's trivial , but my standard answer is going to be I have no idea .

Speaker 1 49:13

Yeah , we don't know .

Speaker 2 49:17

We leave that into the hands of a loving and gracious God . I couldn't say any more than that . You know , I don't want to say well , I'm sure God just overlooked that and he's fine now . I wouldn't say that . But that's a tough question , because what they want to hear is oh , I'm sure your grandpa's in heaven . I couldn't in good conscience say that if I didn't believe it .

Speaker 2 49:36

But I also can't say he's not either I'm not god you know , god can do whatever hell god wants to do , so we leave that in the hands of god . You know , yeah , a loving and gracious God . That's all I can do , but that's a tough question .

Speaker 1 49:52

Yeah , yeah , yeah . For for a church that is so , uh , inherent in what we've talked about already . On like con concrete answers . That's such a shitty answer you know .

Speaker 2 50:06

For for a church that is backed by like hey , this is what we believe and exactly and at the end of the day , we really don't know what was in your grandfather's heart , right , what we don't know , god knows what was in his heart .

Speaker 1 50:20

So we leave that person could come to church every Sunday and have you know .

Speaker 2 50:24

Oh , yeah , exactly .

Speaker 1 50:25

Freezer or something . Yeah , exactly . Um , oh , I just had a question and I lost it . Oh , it wasn't a question , it was a story . So I think the I mean you're going to feel terrible , but I have to say it .

Speaker 2 50:40

So you don't have to if I'm going to feel terrible .

Speaker 1 50:45

The thing that I remember as a kid that like shook me to my core and really like I remember telling friends about this right Cause there was this movie that came out called all dogs go to heaven , and a year before that I had heard in Bible study and I don't know if you were teaching it or another pastor was teaching it Uh , but we learned that animals in fact do not go to heaven , and my world was shaken . And then , when that movie came out , I found it my mission to tell all my friends that like hey , by the way , your dog is not actually in heaven , they're not in hell , they just don't exist anymore . But I told Joe that the other day and she was like , oh my God , that had to be traumatic . I was like it wasn't so traumatic , it was just like , damn , that sucks . Like we go to a really , really tough church where , like my cat that passed away is just gone , Just gone . Do you , do you have any memory of talking about pets ?

Speaker 2 51:41

I don't , but I my view at the time . So it must . It may have been somebody else who was , who gave that message or that teaching , but I , my view was always well , well , if heaven is perfect because I used to answer I mean I would have kids ask me that question yeah ,

Dogs in Heaven and Episode Wrap-up

Speaker 2 51:54

well , if heaven's perfect , you know if it's it's , if it's joy , and you know who's to say . Fluffy isn't going to be meeting you in heaven . I again it gets back to that . I don't know . It's not like I can go to scripture and say dogs will not be in heaven . Thus saith the lord you know , yeah .

Speaker 2 52:10

So if it not in there , I can't just make shit up and proclaim what is arisen .

Speaker 1 52:15

That's actually in Kristi Noem's version of the Bible . That's actually a solid joke . By the way , that was a pretty good one . And that's a really good answer by you too . I wish that you were around when , whoever was talking .

Speaker 2 52:29

I saved you all those years of struggle .

Speaker 1 52:34

Good lord , Cool . Well , I think this is a good place to end . Next time we'll talk about the certainty wavering and leaving the church and stuff like that .

Speaker 2 52:45

Yeah , we can get away from dogs dying . I'm a little more upbeat , alright , thanks Ed . Thanks Miles .

Speaker 1 52:55

I mean , that really was a good joke . Kristi Noem , for those that don't know , wrote a book where she bragged about killing puppies . Anyway , next week we're going to be digging into my dad's life at his second church when we moved to Sycamore , illinois , there was a large church fire which really began his movement away from the Christian faith and in being a pastor . As a friendly reminder , it really helps out the show . If you subscribe to the show , rate the show , review the show on whatever platform you're listening to now . If you have a question for me or any suggestions , always feel free to email me at miles at findingmyreligionpodcom . That's miles with a Y , by the way . And we are all over social media as well Facebook , instagram , tiktok , and you can find all these links on findingmyreligionPodcom .