Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
Leslie Carnahan: "Faith, Health, and Skepticism"
Join us as my sister-in-law, Leslie Carnaghan, PhD, takes us through her personal odyssey from a church-going youth to an atheist with a deep understanding of the human quest for community and spiritual fulfillment. Her insights, shaped by a rigorous scientific upbringing and an extensive career in public health, cast a fascinating light on the complex relationship between skepticism, atheism, and the spiritual aspects of human life.
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Welcome to Finding my Religion. My name is Miles Stelps. In this next episode, we're going to be talking with my sister-in-law, leslie Carnaghan. Leslie has her PhD Smarty Pants from the University of Illinois at Chicago in Community Health Sciences. She's also currently still working at that school as a research assistant professor for the School of Public Health. Alright, we are back. Really awesome guest that is joining me today. It's my sister-in-law, leslie Carnaghan. I'm super pumped to talk with her because she's much smarter than I am. She has, I think, 15 more degrees than I do, which is super awesome. But, leslie, how are you?
Speaker 2:I'm doing really well. I'm doing really well. Awesome. I'm working on 10 am caffeinated working on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't know, man. You start getting into these December months in the Midwest and it's just so gloomy, especially like we're doing this on a Monday morning and I feel like. I'm dragging today for sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I know, and I know one of the I love the episode with you and Jordan and I was like, oh, it's 10 am Monday and a workday, but full disclosure.
Speaker 1:I'm working right now, but yeah, should I put a spike in my coffee.
Speaker 1:Yeah, should we have some of most of this or something that probably would be smart? Again, thank you for doing this. I'm really excited to hear your journey, because we've had a lot of conversations over the years, usually over a couple of glasses of wine or beer or whatever. So you know we'll do. We'll keep it sober this time, but I'm sure the conversation will be just as fascinating. But what? Let's start at where I always do what is your faith or your religion at this point in your life?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I don't have faith or religion. I consider myself to be an atheist with a belief in the power of I don't know spiritualism is the right word, but but yeah, so definitely an atheist have been. I think I was wavered with agnosticism in my late teens, early 20s. Yeah, definitely made that sort of realization for myself, I would say in like my very early 20s.
Speaker 1:What like? How was it like one day? Or just like, oh yeah, I'm atheist, or was it something that you'd been wrestling with?
Speaker 2:So I was raised not in necessarily super, super strict If we went on vacation, like we didn't go to church, but we did belong to. I remember growing up to the same denomination, a couple of different churches, just based on where we live, growing up and I went to Sunday school. I went to the summer camp multiple years. I think I even played this cracks me up. I think I have a picture of it but I even at like seventh, eighth grade, going through what's that thing called I'm not communion, what's the thing that you do in eighth grade?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, like the catechism, or so I was.
Speaker 2:Methodist, so we didn't use. Oh my. God Like become the member to like make that commitment. What is it called Jesus?
Speaker 1:Why can't I think of it?
Speaker 2:I'm sure it'll come as soon as we finish. So like I went through that whole thing and I never really bought into the. I remember like being skeptical of the storylines but finding like there was clearly like a community aspect there and this and that. But yeah, as my dad was a chemist, a scientist, so I think like very early, from a very early age, just really taught about the value and importance and the quote unquote truths associated with science and there were just so many things about relit, what like that doesn't match up to like I don't know. I think just a skeptic, I was very skeptical always.
Speaker 1:What were some of the things like? Do you remember as a kid like what specifically you were skeptical about? Because, I mean, your dad was somebody that really liked debate. He really enjoyed talking about science, and so I got to imagine that's how you grew up as well. And if your dad's a chemist and you're learning about these stories that really aren't based in any sort of like science, factual stuff, people, still they mean a lot to people, but as a kid you're just taking in information as it's presented to you. What sorts of things were you skeptical of, even as a kid?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think just even some of the sort of the classic Bible stories and just again they just didn't. They just seem like a story, like a sort of a fantasy, and I want to see a bush explode into flames, but like it's not going to happen because. But then, like you do see some of these like really cool scientific discoveries where it's oh in fact like deep in this very isolated part of the world where there's like there's like thermal geosorts of activity, like there will be trees that are on fire.
Speaker 2:So are these things like the fruition of all of the crazy shit that people have seen? That is possible, but yeah, so no, I just. But it was interesting, though, too, because my dad, I feel like, even though he was a scientist, like he did, like he did not go to. He went to church, like with my mom, but that was definitely not like a super he wasn't unenthusiastic about it, but he wasn't enthusiastic about it, but he did, I think, have a somewhat of a belief and a higher being and power.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting to but yeah no, so I don't know just that, and then the people that I hung out with.
Speaker 2:I also had some of these similar mindsets and I remember in eighth grade, confirmation.
Speaker 1:There we go, nailed it.
Speaker 2:So, going through confirmation, there was a group of probably 15 of us and I remember there was one person who was like no, I'm, because you go through whatever months of the learning and I don't even really remember. It was like we just got together and talked about, yeah, passages from the Bible and like relating that to life.
Speaker 1:But anyways it's one person.
Speaker 2:So you do months of that and then you have to do like a one-on-one with the pastor, pastors, and they ask you is this, this is your decision? Is this something that are you committing to being a member of this church, of the? To blah, blah, blah. And in my mind I was just like A I'm in eighth grade, so what do I know. B if I say no, my mom would kill me. And D whatever my mom said, I had to come to this class.
Speaker 2:And then, when I was in high school, I can make my own decisions about coming to church. So there was one person who said no and I, and like I knew this person and like we hung out. They were in my social circle, like into my twenties and I just remember like talking with them and being like wow, that was really that took a lot of courage in eighth grade to be like sorry, I'm not doing this, but yeah, but so, yeah, so that was a path. And then I think in college, just yeah, that was like just the more like the readings that I did and I was all over the place in my early twenties but yeah, and there's something that like thought about it and then it didn't really like ever come up, unless someone asked me about it or conversations of religion. Yeah Cause, it's just I don't have. I don't have a religion, I don't have a faith, and that's fine for me, do you feel like?
Speaker 1:cause it's not atypical for people that are raised in? I'll just say Christianity, cause that's what I was raised in and that's what a lot of my friends were. People fall out of it. That's not unique or anything. Do you feel like? You mentioned a couple of times that your parents would make you go, or that your mom would have you go to confirmation or whatever? Was religion always presented to you as something that you had to do, or was it presented? Do you feel like, if it was presented to you in a way where it's like, hey, this is a really awesome thing that, like your family believes, do you feel like it would have been different? Was the presentation what brought you out of it, or was it you have to do this and then, on top of it, the stories were maybe too fantastical for you, even as a kid, and then that led you to where you are today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we didn't at home, we didn't say grace before we didn't come home and then continue the discussions of. I remember my mom definitely. She was one to volunteer and Sunday school teachers are. I know when I was in middle school I was involved in wood. They had, I think, a tiered system where the little bit older the kids were a little bit who were a little bit older, watched the younger kids and I would do that. But it was very much more of this is a community that we're a part of and so we are going to go and participate and I think, yeah, for my mom, it was my mom, like I know she, she prays and she definitely believes in God, but I think a lot of it for her was really the community aspect and it's the same people every week and so, yeah, but for me it was just like no, like you don't really have a choice, like you're just going to come because, yeah, yeah, in high school it was like in high school, I would definitely still have to go on like Easter, christmas.
Speaker 2:What are some of the other? I feel like there's.
Speaker 1:Those are the big ones. I think people usually call that like the, the creasters, the people that come.
Speaker 2:The two times a year. Yeah.
Speaker 1:So we get to high school and then I assume that we just we decided that we're not going to be going to church anymore. Was that decision left up to you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was definitely given more autonomy in that decision and it was also just so weird Cause it's okay you confirm to commit, but then you're released of the the responsibility. But yeah, yeah, so that was yeah for the most part.
Speaker 1:I was really excused, so when you were going through confirmation, you must have said that, yeah, you wanted to move forward with being part of the church, right?
Speaker 2:Was that?
Speaker 1:something that like did you not believe that, but that it was just like you were. You felt like you were pressured, or what was that experience like?
Speaker 2:Can you repeat the question?
Speaker 1:Yeah. Do you feel like you were pressured Maybe not directly to say yeah, I want to continue being a part of this church, or was this something I just want this over with? I don't want to the confrontation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was. I definitely didn't want the confrontation and I didn't want to disappoint my yeah, of course, Didn't want to disappoint my parents and yeah, I also feel like, too, I was definitely. There are just some things that you just do cause like your parents telling you to, and I definitely had that relationship with my parents about this and even though my dad wasn't necessarily enthusiastic about church, he was like, oh, your mom said that you, it's really important for her, for you to do this. You have to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Makes sense. You said that your 20s were very chaotic. I didn't know you at that point in your life but, yeah, I think you went away to college and then came back at some point. What were you thinking about religion at all at that point in your life?
Speaker 2:No, in some ways, I think like being yeah, definitely like being in college and being in that sort of environment and doing those humanities classes and the psychology understanding, psychology and about all of the experiments, and it took a lot of like literature classes and so I was just really literally reading a ton and, yeah, I think a part of the allure of wanting to be like cool and like alternative and I became a vegetarian and that was, I think, a really time for me too, when I was developing.
Speaker 2:I remember, too an undergrad, because it took me some time in college, like I almost flunked out of school when I left. It was just like it was too much change and I was struggling with like different things. But when I came back and finally got my footing again, yeah, I took some classes around political systems and this and that. So I guess, yeah, I definitely was one of those people who got radicalized by education. Yeah, so I think those were more of the things that I was thinking about, and I think religion did sometimes come into it, because I just again, I think, was constantly seeing this discordance between people who, like all of these horrible things that were being done and are being done in the name of religion, it just it's still, it's there's such a, it's such a discourse, it's just it's not connected and if this is truly how religion is, it's not functioning in human society very well for many people.
Speaker 1:Let's fast forward a little bit. So you figuring yourself out struggle with school initially, didn't so much struggle with school. Once you figured out who you were as a person and what your belief systems were. You did a lot of traveling too, or like all around the world. Your former partner was from Europe, so you guys would go back there a lot, but then you also did some pretty large programs with with your grad school too. I got to imagine that just seeing other parts of the world helped influence a belief system for you.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, absolutely yeah, one. I don't know how many countries are there in the world, almost 200.
Speaker 1:I don't think we know, and countries are also both their arbitrary boundaries put.
Speaker 2:But, yeah, people, humanity is so diverse and how people operate and run things.
Speaker 2:Two, I think that, yeah, that absolutely opened up my mind of just okay, just because I'm doing it this way, there's a million different ways and that's not at the individual level too, right, I like my beliefs thinking about too.
Speaker 2:I'm an individual, but then around me I have my community and there's a lot of different ways for community to look, and then, above community, you have our institutions and then, right, like you, and that's like having that ability and especially because, as I work in the public health system, so that is also just dealing with health and well-being, like you're just working, it's such a vulnerable aspect of almost everybody is life and yeah, so you just really get to learn and see a lot of just how different systems of privilege and oppression and and, yeah, and even my ex-husband being from Eastern Europe, yeah, like that was being with someone for so long who's upbringing and everything, even though there's a lot of similarities, yeah, and just spending so much time in another place and learning the systems and structures as well, yeah, it's also. It's I was thinking the last time I traveled, I was talking to Arturo I need to get out of the country because it was yours and Jordan's wedding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the last time I was like oh my God, I think this is the longest, like I have a really bad itch just to be in like a different, just a different environment. Yeah, yeah, it makes sense.
Speaker 1:So, as a as an atheist, how I think people that especially are involved with religion are always really curious, like how do you have a belief system, what is your belief system? How do you know what is good and what isn't good and all that good stuff that religion tends to help with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, in the same way that just not having a dedication or a proclamation to an external entity, whether that's whatever God or whatever again, higher thing or higher things all religions have commonalities in terms of though shall not harm others. Treat other people as you want to be treated, everyone is your neighbor or just those basic philosophies, those and that's. I've read religious texts and I'm by no means like a scholar and blah, blah, blah, but I find more things and again, just sort of those connections of the ethics of like humanity and those I would argue of someone is so set in their conviction that is connected to God or to a religion, like that's their own belief and I have. No, I don't see any purpose in trying to debate and argue that, because I think that's something that's so internal. Yeah, not to be like dismissive of people and be like, oh, I'm not going to have this conversation with you, but it's interesting.
Speaker 2:I did, for seven or eight years, have this really cool research project that we kept getting renewed funding and we were working in the rural part of the state with community partners and it was focused around like cardiovascular disease risk reduction, but we were partnered with community churches, so we were partnered 12 community churches and definitely the question you're meeting with the pastor of the church, you're meeting if they have a parish nurse, you know, you're meeting with the church elders and community leaders, and I would say, because that was how we recruited people, right, because we get money, we get a grant, blah, blah, blah, and then you have to like, basically, a lot of people don't want to necessarily work with research because, depending on who the money is from and all of the funding ties, but anyway.
Speaker 2:So we would have to go down to Southern Illinois in person, sit down in churches and, yeah, I would say, of the 12 partners, partnerships that we built and that we maintained for five, six years, I would say, with probably about 75% of the people, had conversations about faith and religion and I was very open and I told people like, yeah, I was raised Methodist and currently I don't really have a faith, and yeah, people were just okay, cool. I definitely was also given material and literature to read and invitations to always come back, but I think I was able to build trusting relationships with people on the premise of, yes, I specifically want to work with a faith-based organization because of but that was where it was like it was really valuing the connection to the community that they had and just being really upfront. But also, if someone didn't ask about it, I didn't say anything either, because I was like there's no point yeah right.
Speaker 2:Whatever they want to assume.
Speaker 1:I think it's really interesting.
Speaker 1:The more I talk with people, the less visceral the conversations are around religion, just like one-to-one.
Speaker 1:That aren't happening on Twitter or the comments of some news article or whatever.
Speaker 1:People are way more willing to have a conversation with you, no matter what your belief system is, and I especially find that true in that community aspect. So I just talked with this person today where they have a service in Madison where it's really just driven by a lot of the churches in the area, not just Christian churches, but there's a Wiccan church, there's the Jewish synagogues, there's, I think, a couple of Muslim churches or temples I forget what they call themselves but they're all coming together for this one thing that is going to help the community from a public health perspective. And the more I talk with people, the more I get involved with the people in the community, the more I'm finding this all over, not just in Madison. Has that been your experience too in the public health domain, that churches are a huge part about just and not every church right, there's a lot of shitty churches out there, but there's some good ones out there that seem to do some real good, that aren't just sending the kids to Africa to do process sizing or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, definitely yeah, and they have. That's the Churches are amazing, finding the right matches. Churches and faith leaders right. They're trusted voices. It's a natural gathering place of people. Like a ton of work. We do a ton of work around promoting cancer screenings, cancer education. I mentioned parish nurses. Are you familiar with?
Speaker 1:No, that's actually a term. I've never heard about a parish nurse.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, so probably there's a lot more See, and like some, so the Southern, the Southern Methodist, no, the Southern Methodist, southern Baptist. So there's, I thought Was your dad a Lutheran.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's a Lutheran pastor. Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think, from my understanding, so parish nurses, so right, nursing is a pretty common profession. Most congregations will have someone who, just by trade, is a nurse. So some churches will have informal models of parish nurses where it's just, oh, everyone knows that this person in their community, maybe they can ask them for health advice and then you have almost full integration of a parish nurse. So I've worked with some churches that have More of black churches, that have health ministries, and so they'll have a whole ministry in that church dedicated to health and sometimes they'll even Weekly, like the parish nurse will be on the fourth Sunday doing free blood pressure screenings after church for people to just stop and check at their blood pressure. They might organize a flu shot drive and there's definitely there are some resources and there's also like trainings that people could go through. There's associations and organizations. There were parish nurse conferences type of things.
Speaker 2:So again, really a spectrum and degree, but, yeah, so not all churches have them, but so, yeah. So that's what I think and it is interesting because public health, I think in the same way that Joe's work, of social work, you get there's some really religious people that I've met in my education and training in public health, which, yeah, I think, surprised me. But then it's oh, again going back to just ethics of humanity and religion. Like, yes, on paper, like religion, there's a lot of really great messages. There's a lot of really horrible messages to religion, but it makes sense. You get a lot of people who are job.
Speaker 1:There was an episode I did a couple of weeks ago with a person named Katie Piles, who's a social worker, really involved with the Catholic ministry, and she went to school for social work. But I was in the conversation with her. I found it was super interesting because she A lot of her classmates were so worried about the. I'm not gonna describe this how she did it. She did a great job of the earthly stuff. That is a problem that all social workers are gonna be concerned with, but also there's the soul that she was also concerned with, like the social work of the soul, and so she was also interested in that. So she went to school for social work but then also did a theology degree as well on top of that, and it got me thinking specifically with social work.
Speaker 1:As someone that's involved in the social work scene public health do you ever think about things that aren't on this earth, like the? The reason why I'm asking these questions? Because I talk with my wife a lot about things that she thinks about that aren't just concerned with giving people housing and health care and all these different things that are problems that might not ever be solved but still have to put in the work to do it. But there's all these other cool things that are happening, like with science. Or are there other dimensions? What happens when you die? Like those types of questions. Do you ever get wrapped up in those types of kind of circular thoughts of just wondering what aliens, anything?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, there are aliens in the term of something external to the planet earth, absolutely Like, yeah, there's got to be other life out there, whether or not it mimics what it looks like, what we have on earth. I think the deaf being out in nature like, okay, a tree, for example. Does a tree have a soul? I don't think so, but a tree is a living. They're literally breathing. It's a being that has some feeling of how sentient ever being it is.
Speaker 2:But I think definitely like thinking about aspects of nature, and I think that is where sometimes I do get just overwhelmed of the enormity of life. Thanks, and I guess too, for me like being an atheist, so I'm not thinking of the heaven or hell, I think, but I do. Again, this is where I'd say, if I'm a spiritualist or like a naturalist, like my body is going to decompose and it is going to maybe stay in a box or maybe I'm going to get cremated and but I guess, yeah, just that like continuity of my physical form will be absorbed back into the earth in a way, and so like, maybe eventually I'll be a redwood tree in California, but I guess that sort of so yeah, so not necessarily so I guess it is like the existential sorts of thoughts that I have that I think closely mimic, like the conversations of again, like religion and and yeah.
Speaker 1:It's almost harder for atheists, or people that live without God, to explain some of that stuff, because, I don't know, I similar to you. Like you're skeptical of things, or skeptical of stories, or skeptical of an explanation of something, and sometimes science doesn't give you the explanation that you're looking for as well. And so then, what do you have to rely on? And it's the faith that scientist is correct or whatever.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And I think about how difficult it is, because religion sometimes explains those types of things. So then, if you're living without God, how do you explain some of this stuff that is unexplainable, unless there is something that is making it or is the cause behind it. I still struggle with those types of thoughts.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that's where, yeah, and I think you bring up a really good point. Science science in of itself, it is biased, it is imperfect, people make horrible mistakes, people do things in the name of they do horrible things in the name of science too. And the agenda of that is like one thing, like being in, like the research world and like really seeing how, like funding is prioritized to certain topics, to certain populations, certain geographic areas. Yeah, I think that's a great point, right, and I think that has fault as well and is not necessarily this all-knowing trustworthy entity or being, and I think there's just a lot of things that I feel comfortable with not knowing, and I think that, just because we don't know how maybe something works or how something operates, I don't think that that. I think that just means that we haven't we don't have the capacity necessarily to figure it out.
Speaker 2:And that's where I think it is like super fascinating to think about us as humans and our limitations and our strengths. Right, like my, our lovely cats that we have. They have like different skills and different the sounds that they hear and the things that they see, and so it's like, yeah, how can we, as humans, think that we can absolutely know everything? No, we're not that smart as a species.
Speaker 1:Right yeah.
Speaker 2:And in many ways.
Speaker 1:So you've done a lot of work. You have your PhD.
Speaker 2:I should have called you Dr Carnahan when you came here, dr.
Speaker 1:That was my mistake, but what has been like the most influential thing that you feel like has shaped who you are after all of your years in education and academia. It doesn't have to be like a religious thing, but is there anything that's, oh my God, like this one thing? This is why I am who I am now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, like in the sort of broad grand scheme of things, definitely the ability to travel to see so many different kinds of people, to see so many different kinds of places, to see so many different types of living conditions.
Speaker 2:I think that has just been extremely influential and like my outlook on really everything and the path that I want to take in my life and what is going to be my life's purpose or my trying to leave things in a better state than they were before.
Speaker 2:So that, yeah, I think definitely like the now that I'm a parent, like having a child to take care, like a super impactful experience in my life. But I think, yeah, just in my life outlook, I don't know, it seems like I feel really fortunate in that, even though there's been lots of ups and downs in my life, like I've again, I think, found this balance, not that work is everything. I've found a balance like of something that makes me really happy to do in my professional life, and it's also work that I feel. I don't know, I don't claim to think that my work is going to save people's lives necessarily or per se, but I hope that this work can help influence, like health policy laws, and I'm also working with a lot of students and can I make their education experience beneficial. Yeah, I don't know if I answered your question. I feel like I deviated.
Speaker 1:No, I think it was more just like the overall experience of being able to see the world and talk with different people. It sounds like it's been the most influential thing. What are you working on right now, even as a PhD person yeah, a person that is PhD what are you in academia still? What is the what's like your overall goal?
Speaker 2:Do you feel like yeah, yeah, and there's like lots of requirements and things around, just like acquiring grants and publishing papers in academic journals and doing talks and presentations and blah, blah, blah. I do. I teach one class every semester, so it's cool to. I get to it's that all of the incoming first year master's students, so I teach the same group of students for two semesters in a row, which is cool, so I get to know the students pretty well. And then I have a research research projects, a couple of different ones.
Speaker 2:I do work around cancer health equity and so one of the research projects is around trying to increase participation, especially among black women with breast cancer, and clinical trials. So doing lots of interviews and focus groups and we're doing like a production of, eventually of a video is like a an educational decision making tool. And then I do a lot of work with the Illinois Department of Public Health and help them to evaluate and implement several of their cancer, like their statewide cancer projects and programs that they have. So, yeah, lots of cancer work and that's also really interesting. And I think, like in for that research project that I mentioned, we did 30 interviews with women who had a most have a fairly recent ish cancer diagnosis and it is really powerful.
Speaker 2:So many people having a near death experience for some people can be a catalyst to to change or to dig deeper into faith, or for a lot of people who are already sought faith as a tool to help them live their lives, that would be something that they would really turn to and so that has, I think I do not. I do respect, I think, the role and value of religion and how it can improve, make people feel good it can improve their lives as community. But yeah, work with a lot of people doing cancer around cancer related stuff.
Speaker 1:What is, and I know we're getting off topic, but I'm just curious what is the inequality within? I've heard this before, I think on a couple of podcasts, but just not super in depth of like why is there inequality with people of color in the healthcare system?
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, there's a lot of different.
Speaker 1:There's many different reasons I might get can of worms.
Speaker 2:Yeah One, hospitals, just like many other things, were very segregated for a long time.
Speaker 2:Access to you, look at like the training pipeline, like there's not a lot of black doctors, there's not a lot of. For people like in healthcare settings, it can be really beneficial to be able to seek care from someone who you can relate to. But yeah, so, for example, with breast cancer. So black women are just as likely as white women to get screened regularly with mammograms, but black women are much more likely to be diagnosed with a higher stage of breast cancer and things like clinical trials in the realm of cancer.
Speaker 2:They are how people, that's the science that is done to make the standard of treatment better. So it's really it's the cutting edge technology, it's like the breakthrough pharmaceuticals and in general black people are less likely to be recruited to participate in clinical trials because of logistics or this and that. So the disparities in black women are just much more likely than white women to actually die after a breast cancer diagnosis and a lot of that has to do with the hospital systems that are often situated in. So Chicago is extremely segregated. The quality of care of the community based hospitals they do amazing work, but often Northwestern performs differently than the community has been on the West side Right, because Northwestern it's got different types of resources in this and that yeah multi-faceted reasons for the disparities.
Speaker 2:But there's a lot of work in really just trying to, and I work at UIC and that's in Chicago and it's the public institution and we are really charged with, and that's why, again, going back to our office, we have over 200, 250 community partnerships and I don't know what proportion of those are churches, but I can tell you for certain that we have quite a few partnerships with churches because they're important. They're part of the community.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I forget what. I was listening to you again on their podcast, but they were saying that the people that live longest typically have three things. It's typically not processed food. Some sense of community and then some sort of like faith in a higher being or whatever. Those three things are like what all the longest people on earth always had. So, they're like that's something. I don't know what it is, but it's something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Shoot. I only have two out of three.
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah, I was like not having and this is where it's again I don't have a faith, I don't have a religion, but I still I don't know I feel this sounds so cheesy but like finding that sort of like rounding in, like my friends and my family and my community. I know it's not, I don't know like I do Like that to me. Just I don't feel and that's what's interesting like those people of the faith. Is it like their own individual connection to God or is it like all of the associated benefits?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:It's really hard to, although there are researchers who go really in depth on religiosity, which is so fascinating. It's so fascinating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, religion is such a catch-all thing for a lot of things too, where it's like if you go to your mega church every Sunday and that's all you do, but you don't put any effort into it. Or like, yeah, you might be religious in name, but are you actually participating versus maybe somebody like you that doesn't have religion but you're participating in the community, like actively trying to make it better for everyone. That seems more religious than somebody that goes to church every Sunday that doesn't participate. So I don't know, it's just maybe context.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah For you, so no, go ahead.
Speaker 2:No, go ahead.
Speaker 1:For you. You're the parent of three small kids. How do you guys think about religion when you think about raising them up? Or how does that? Because you and the reason why I ask this question is because you grew up in a quote unquote religious household or you grew up within the church, and so your experience might be different than what you give your kids, and how do you navigate those waters?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, definitely like having Arturo and I had conversations about our like what are your plans? What?
Speaker 1:do you want Right?
Speaker 2:And unfortunately they were like quite aligned yeah.
Speaker 1:Arturo too.
Speaker 2:He went to Catholic High School, like his mom. Oh, he also went to seminary school too, which is pretty.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's wild.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he went to seminary school, high school.
Speaker 1:He was going to be a priest.
Speaker 2:No, I think it was more. It was a really good Catholic Chicago school in a nice neighborhood. I know like for him.
Speaker 2:Mom really wanted to put him in a school in like a particular neighborhood. Sure, yeah, no, my mother-in-law, like she had. They happened to live right next door to a beautiful Catholic church. There's been times when Matias has been over there hanging out during the day when we're working and there's been something at the church, and she takes him to the church and, oh, I trust her. If she wants to go light a candle for her mom who passed away two years ago, yeah, let's take Matias and there's absolutely no harm in that. But will we be taking the kids to what did you call it? The creasters?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the creasters, yeah, yeah, like, no like.
Speaker 2:I guess, if my mom yeah, if my mom, like my mom, doesn't, I don't even think she goes to church anymore.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:She has never invited us. So, yeah, I don't know. So it's just really not a it's not in our beyond my mother-in-law taking him occasionally to, yeah, light a candle or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you more like you experience it, and if you have questions, like when you're older, we can talk about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it's interesting because the twins, they're almost seven and their mom isn't. They're not attending church like when they're at their mom's house, but yeah, it's interesting. They I'm sure they'll start to have more questions about it, but I know the school that they go to there's the school that they go to absolutely has kids from so many different backgrounds and multiple religions. Yeah, just like the representativeness of the globe is pretty impressive in their school.
Speaker 1:That's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but yeah, they haven't really asked. When they ask questions, I don't know. I'm interested to see what they ask, because kids say crazy stuff and you're just like what are you?
Speaker 1:talking about? Yeah, I am sure too that kids ask questions sometimes and you're like I've never thought about that, but now I have to and I have to give you an answer on the spot. Yeah, you're probably just going to be figured out as you go, sort of thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think like certain things where I do feel like religion is such a personalized experience, so I've also thought about this. Oh, when it gets. When Matias eventually asked me like, oh, what do you believe, mom? I thought like, oh, my script will be this is how I feel and you go do whatever you want to figure it out, if you want some recommendations on things to read, or. But yeah, I hope that I'm not like, I hope that I'm that type of parent that puts like, doesn't try to, that tries to guide them to make their own decision. Would I be like weirded out if Matias ended up being like very fanatical religious. I'd probably be like, how did that happen?
Speaker 1:But Right, what did I do? Yeah, that's awesome. So you mentioned that you had a sheet of four things that you wanted to get through, but we don't have the sheet anymore, so I got to ask after going through this conversation do you remember what was on there? And the secondary question of that is one that Joe likes me to ask is what didn't we talk about that maybe you want to talk about?
Speaker 2:It's a good closing interview question. No, we got through. So I know definitely there was. I'm pretty sure there was four things. I know we got through three of them definitely, and either there wasn't a fourth or I just am not remembering a fourth, it happens.
Speaker 2:I know, yeah, no, I think we I really do feel like we covered things. I think, yeah, like religion again I don't know if this is maybe one of your more like, I like it is interesting because I feel like there are some people who are just very passionate and especially with, like you mentioned, just people online and like the conversations that people have around religion online and like atheists in some ways. Oh my God, I can just be like it gets annoying and maybe I was this person when I was younger in college. But yeah, I just feel like religion is just a really personal thing for people.
Speaker 2:But again, going back to that idea, like it is really like a struggle when you see again just globally and like religion just embracing like so many bad things. And that's where I just get. I want to know, like how can you be a part of this, like reinforcing these systems of? Yeah, that's one thing that I don't struggle with. It's not a struggle because I don't think about it on a regular basis. Those are, again conversations that I think I would be interested in having with more people, but it is really cool. I think just church as a whole has it's constantly evolving, it's a reflection of society, so it's going to constantly change.
Speaker 1:Yeah, he said it's a personal thing and I think I've always landed where if, as long as your personal beliefs don't hinder that of someone else, of who they are or what they're about, then go off. I think a lot of times that doesn't happen and, like I said, the loudest voices are typically the ones that you hear. Unfortunately, and like with these conversations, it's just so much easier. I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely, it's face to face and you have to like, oh, like, as an actual human on the other side of this.
Speaker 1:Totally. I appreciate your time and doing this. I think you're a very smart individual, happy to be in your family and just appreciate you sharing what you think.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, thanks for having me, miles. And yeah, how many years have? I know we just talked about this with the Delz? Yeah, I think.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think Joe and I started dating in 2009. So 14. Yeah, nice, nice and time so we'll keep it going, yeah All right, leslie. Thanks so much for doing this, I appreciate it Thanks, Miles.
Speaker 1:All right. Thanks again. So much to Leslie for coming on. She has three kids at home, has a full-time job, lives in Chicago I don't know how she does it all and still made time for me. Thanks again for listening to Finding my Religion. Make sure to follow us on Instagram, facebook, tiktok, youtube wherever you're doing the socials. See you next week.
