Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
Jaden Schultz: "At War with God"
Join us in the latest installment of Finding my Religion, where we take you on a raw, soul-searching journey through the labyrinth of faith. This episode features Jaden Schultz, a brave, Lutheran Protestant Christian sharing an intimate account of her faith journey after suffering the heart-wrenching loss of her father. Jaden's candid story resonates with the tumultuous struggle and ultimate triumph of faith, offering a unique perspective on the essence of a relationship with God.
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Welcome to Finding my Religion. My name is Miles Stelps. This is going to be the second episode in our series talking to the UW Interfaith Fellows. If you missed last week, go back and take a listen.
Speaker 1:We talk with James Poulet, who's a recent convert to Catholicism, and, as a reminder, I was able to get in touch with the Center for Interfaith Dialogue Program at the University of Wisconsin and they allowed me to talk with some of their interfaith fellows that are currently going through their program. The program's charter is really really cool. Their goals provide their fellows and eventually, some of the other students with the knowledge and skills to basically overcome some of the barriers of religious differences that exist in our world. It's incredibly enlightening to talk with some of these people because they're so much smarter than me and they're so much younger, but the passion that they have for what they believe and also for just discourse and what other people believe, is something that I think we all can learn from, especially with some of the things that are going on across the world. Alright, welcome back. Jaden Schultz is joining me another one of the fellows at the Interfaith Center at UW, which I'm super excited to talk with you. Thanks for joining. How's your day going so far?
Speaker 2:It's going well. Thank you for having me. I'm super excited.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course, so I don't know anything about you. This is the first time that we're talking, so I'm excited. I love these types of conversations. It's happened a couple times on this show but where? So you're obviously in in Madison right now going to school. Where are you originally from?
Speaker 2:I'm from Pewaukee, wisconsin, so right outside of Milwaukee, about an hour outside of Madison.
Speaker 1:Yeah, awesome, yeah, and so are you. What year at school are you?
Speaker 2:I'm a junior, but I'm taking an extra year, so I'll be here for a while.
Speaker 1:Awesome, and what's like your area of study currently?
Speaker 2:So I have three majors actually.
Speaker 1:Totally Calvin.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my primary one is health promotion and health equity, which is public health pretty much. And then English and religious studies, and then I have a minor, or what we call like certificates in history.
Speaker 1:Awesome, busy, busy, busy it is busy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I enjoy it, though it's been, it's been really great.
Speaker 1:So that's awesome. It's fun to talk with people that take school seriously, because I certainly did not. I was trying to just get the hell out of there as quick as I could. So it's awesome that you're you're digging into it and that it interests you. Yeah, I am. That's awesome. That's great, well, cool. Well, let's talk about religion. So the question I always start with is what's your, your faith or your religion, at this point in your life?
Speaker 2:So I'm Lutheran Protestant Christian. I grew up in a Lutheran home. I was raised in the church. My dad grew up Lutheran, in his whole side of the the family is Lutheran, and my mom was actually raised Catholic and was taught by nuns and eventually left the Catholic church. So that was kind of interesting growing up, you know, hearing about a lot of her kind of horror stories almost with the nuns and kind of their treatment of children really, and I got to hear her perspective on things in the Catholic church that she disagreed with and eventually found in the Lutheran faith. But yeah, I grew up in the church. I still practice, although not as frequently as I do at home when I'm here at school. But yeah, that's what I believe, so I believe in God.
Speaker 1:Awesome. So there's obviously a couple of different sections of Lutherans. Do you know like what type you are? I know there's like different synods and stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I should know this. I'm pretty sure we're like ELCA, so the Evangelical Church of America. I'm pretty sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah it's funny.
Speaker 1:Not funny, but we actually just. I talked with somebody. The podcast is out as of this airing of a pastor from my hometown who is ELC or EC ELCA.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, a lot of acronyms going on in religion these days. Yeah, I should, I study, I should, though.
Speaker 1:That's all right, we'll give you a break on that. So you mentioned that your parents obviously were both religious. Did you guys go to church, like? Is that like a huge part of your upbringing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was a pretty big part. We like every Sunday you know we're in church grew up going to like the children's, like ministry classes. I was confirmed into the Lutheran Church eighth grade but my. So I guess I'll give you a whole backstory because I think, please do.
Speaker 2:According to my faith, my dad had childhood cancer and then had cancer again recurring throughout his life and got really sick in 2012. So I was like eight years old, nine years old, and that was like a pretty, a pretty long battle and he actually ended up passing away when I was in eighth grade, so in 2016. And that was difficult, to say the least. I mean I had a lot of anger towards God, I think. I think I had. I was stuck in this mentality of like God, why would you do this to me?
Speaker 2:Like my dad was a very strong believer, obviously, someone I love a lot and looked up to for his faith and for other reasons, of course, but I was struggling with that and like very confused as to why God would let someone like him die. So there was a period of time I like separated myself from the church. I think I was like more distant and just trying to kind of cope with that and like rework my, my understanding of God and my own faith, but eventually I think it definitely made my faith a lot stronger.
Speaker 2:I've come to know God, to understand him in kind of a different way. Is not someone who, like, punishes people and you know who makes bad things happen or takes good people away? I think I've kind of come to understand that, like I'm not in the position to question him, I'm not in the position to make demands of him and what's true things to happen a different way, I think I just trust that his plan is greater than my own and that it was meant to turn out like this. And I don't know why, I don't know, if you know, I'm not exactly sure. I believe that there has to be a good reason behind this or whatever, but I think I trust that this is what God wanted to happen and that's just part of believing, I think, is going along with with God's plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's, that's really tough. Well, first of all, I'm sorry. Cancer is just remains to be just the absolute worst. How did like talk to me about that process? I mean, because I feel like when I talk with people in different situations, either they they've lost someone close, or child that they've lost, or whatever. Like people tend to go one of two ways either they they go and they're angry, they want to know why, or it makes their faith more sound somehow. And it seems like you, you went one direction and then we're able to come around.
Speaker 1:So can you talk about like yeah, yeah, how did that happen for you?
Speaker 2:You know I was really sad for a long period of time.
Speaker 2:I was really struggling with that and like faith for the most part, for like my whole life and up until then, was something that I found a lot of like comfort in and a lot of like strength from, and so like almost being at war with God or at the end of time I felt like I was missing out like a large part of my support system, you know, like I didn't know what else to turn to without God, kind of. And so I finally was like, okay, I'll give you another chance, you know. And then I started to kind of dig more into into the Bible and my one of my dad's favorite books of the Bible is the book of Job. Are you familiar with that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean my dad. My dad was a pastor.
Speaker 2:Oh, nice, yeah, so it's yeah, so I've.
Speaker 1:I'm not religious anymore, betty stretch, but like I still remember some of the books of the Bible, job. I definitely recognize yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, yeah, my dad loved that, basically about this guy who loses everything and still finds, you know, faith in God and the relationship with him.
Speaker 2:So I read that book, kind of in honor of my dad and trying to kind of feel connected and closer to him and also to explore more and kind of as a way to reach out to God and like kind of like a last ditch effort, and I think I found a lot of like what's the word? Like I felt almost connected to Job in a way like obviously I, like my whole family, wasn't killed, I didn't lose all of my like sheep or whatever, like that's a lot of. It isn't applicable, but I felt almost in the same kind of like lost, empty, like space that possibly Job felt like he was in, you know, and I thought a lot about what I think my dad would want and how he would respond and I thought a lot about how Job responded in that book. Yeah, I don't know, I'm trying to think back on my whole process and that was like seven years ago, so I can't really put.
Speaker 1:Also younger. It's a younger self. Probably no more now than you did then.
Speaker 2:But I think yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 2:A lot of my like my whole family is religious. A lot of our social network family, friends, stuff like that neighbors, a lot of the people I'm surrounded by, especially at that time at home, were religious. So I think that was also helpful, kind of like I don't know if I felt like not that my family wouldn't support me if I chose to leave the church, but I think it helps me kind of stay even though I was struggling with my beliefs, but I had people that I trusted and that I looked up to in the faith, like my dad and my mom and other people that I felt like I could talk to about that. So a lot of their responses to kind of helped me find my way back.
Speaker 1:Did you? Did you find that anybody else within family or friends were were also struggling with their faith at times? Or is this more of like an internal struggle that you were going through?
Speaker 2:You know, I felt very internal, and I don't know how well I've voiced it, so I felt it felt very internal. But in retro I have a twin brother. Actually, so as we've gotten older I think we've started to talk about it more too, and he's someone I look up to because he has a pretty strong faith, he's a pretty wise guy, so he's helped a lot to. It's been nice, I mean. I think everyone, part of faith and of any capacity, christian or otherwise, I think, is having doubts at times and struggling. But so my, my experience is not, you know, unique by any means, but there.
Speaker 1:What interest do you about this interfaith program at UW Like? Why was this such a hot topic for you?
Speaker 2:You know, I think so. I grew up in a very non diverse area. You know, ethnically, and like religiously, everyone I know is Christian of some capacity and I had never met like a Jewish person or even like very little contact with like other religions outside of like when I was growing up.
Speaker 2:So I was kind of I was always like curious about them, but I think I was caught up in a lot of like stereotypes and always kind of thought that they were like the wrong religion, right, like they didn't believe what was like really true. So I was interested to learn more and I think it's interesting Like this is my second year being in the interfaith program so I did it my sophomore year right now my junior year as well and I think a lot of my understandings of like my own faith and of other faiths have changed, which has been really nice actually, and I feel like I'm just understand more. I mean, I don't know everything about you know other faiths, but I have at least an understanding, much as nice.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I think it's just a good thing to have.
Speaker 1:Totally, yeah, I mean, I think I think it's awesome, you know, and just talking with with a couple of your, your fellow classmates and then your professor at like it's. It's so cool to see people like wanting to know what's different, without this like divisiveness attached to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned that you had a better understanding of your own faith, as well as others. What are some of the things that that you learned about what it is that you believe?
Speaker 2:So I'll go back again. It's like a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, please do.
Speaker 2:So after my dad died, eighth grade, going into high school was kind of you know, still kind of reckoning with that. And then in like my latter years of high school, like junior and senior year, I got really close with some people in like my, my own church group and then they were branching out to other churches and we were going to like other you know youth groups and stuff of other churches, other like church camps, and I found myself in this very like niche section or group, I think, of Christianity and I think that I now understand to be pretty toxic, very like not to get too political, very extremely far right, very conspiracy theorists, a lot of like doomsday preppers and who just have like a very like niche not maybe not niche, I think they have one view of God and that's kind of propelled within that group or that church or whatever.
Speaker 2:I don't think that group like accurately reflects my beliefs now by any means. But I was very, very much engaged in this group and with these group of people, people very close with them, who like if you think of like this stereotypical, like home studying Christian, like all like that kind of culture that I think is very like stereotyped, so that like comes from the outside but like the stereotype to some extent, I think is true. So I found myself with this group very deep into like purity culture. They had, I don't know, I had, I think, an understanding of God. That was one way that like if you practice this way like, god would love you more.
Speaker 2:And it was very, I felt like very contrived almost at times Like it was a competition of like who could pray the longest or like say the best prayer, and I found this is kind of weird. It's like a side note, like there was this weird like Fascination with Judaism from this like group of Christians that I realized and that like, if you like, new bits of the Torah, or could understand like some Hebrew, like you, were seen as a better Christian. Yeah, which is interesting. I don't think I mean. Christianity obviously is stemmed from Judaism, but I think they've grown to be Pretty distinct religions and I'm not sure how I'm like respectful that is Judaism, or like people who practice.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that it was just like kind of weird looking back. And then I came to this interfaith fellowship and I realized that I Don't have to like practice in one way, right, like I think and like here's an example like I before would never have considered being in like other faith relationship or I like assumed that it wasn't like a Christian centered relationship, that like what that wouldn't be condoned by God and it would be bad and like all this stuff. I would never have considered that. And then we had a meeting once that talked about interfaith relationships and all are accused the director of the program or of the center himself is in an interfaith relationship and we had a few other fellows who were, who gave some like interesting perspectives. So I changed my view on that. I think I would be fine in, um, you know, dating or being in a relationship or whatever, in whatever capacity, was someone who like did not share my faith. I think, as long as they make a meaningful effort to find A belief of their own and if they, you know, put True effort into that and then find out that they that Not no faith, know whatever practice tradition works for them, like I can respect that. I think I would be less Okay with someone who just wrote off religion or spirituality, you know, as a whole, just because, like, without even Trying to find some sort of meaning for themselves. So that was like an interesting Change, I think, from like equally yoked, you know that whole, that was a big, like Key word, I guess in this group that I found myself in, um, and I don't think that's necessarily the case that doesn't accurately reflect what I believe. Now. That group was like very big into Like evangelizing and like going out and spreading the word and they took that like extremely seriously.
Speaker 2:Um, and I think there's a lot of that on campus here too, um, you see people on state street with a sign that says like you're going to hell if you don't believe, and like condemning Like the lgbtq community and some other, some other groups that the church has been, you know, historically kind of opposed to. Um, and I think my, my view and opinion of that has definitely changed. I don't think that's a very personally, I don't think that's a very Useful tactic. I think it gives christians a bad look. Um, I think it causes a lot of pain and hurt for other people, you know, and if I believe, as a christian that our main calling is to love other people, um To serve them, like despite their own beliefs. So I think it's more divisive than this helpful, and I don't necessarily think it actually is productive. Like no one, I think. Well, very few people maybe See those signs or like, okay, like, let me, let me ask more, let me pick up a bible, right, I?
Speaker 2:think that that's quite the opposite so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, those are. Those are good examples that it sounds to me that these change, like these Points in time where your your, your view is shifted and maybe your mind was changed. Those are coming from just being immersed in different areas or being immersed with other people Versus like just hearing about it or somebody reading text to you. Is that fair?
Speaker 2:Right, right, yeah, that's fair for sure. I think I've started to think deeply about like my own thoughts and my own kind of take on christianity, without accepting Just one one view of it. Um, the, the group of people I was around in you know, the like later phases of my high school years um, we're actually our, our old church pastor and like his family, um, who's since have like left our church. Um, they were only there for like a small amount of time, um, and like they're a friend group of other pastors and um, pastors, kids and stuff like that, and I know you yourself are a pastor's kid, so, yeah, I think it was really cool to See.
Speaker 2:I think I was exposed to the a different side of my church, my own church. I was always just like a member, like a someone who went, you know, and then I was able, through being closer with them, to see kind of the like more like business and like administrative side of it, which I don't actually know how helpful that was or how necessary it was for me to to understand that. Um, but I think I got caught up in this mentality that like they were our pastor and like our pastor's family, like they know the most. Like they know more than I do. I studied this, you know, um, I was friends with his, his kids, who were like my age and stuff. So like they know more about the bible than I do, so like their interpretation must be right. Um, which is where a lot of this like um Doomsday, far right stuff like that comes from. Um, a lot of like if you don't vote republican, you're not a true christian.
Speaker 1:Sure stuff.
Speaker 2:It's just harmful stuff. I think you know we're in the bible doesn't say that, um. So I got caught up in this like, well, they must know more than I do. So questioning that view or going against that view must be, you know, the incorrect side, um, and I've come to know that, like they're just people too, you know, although. So our pastor went through, you know, theology training, um, you know in pastoral training, and of course he knows a lot and I think he is wisdom to share, um, I don't necessarily think that everything he says, or, um, you know, his family says, is 100 true and the way to go and what to believe. So that was a very like liberating kind of experience, almost I don't know not to, I don't want to like reign on them Um, get them in trouble or kind of, you know, speak poorly about them. But yeah, was an experience.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I mean, everybody's journey is different. You know, maybe they'll Come around to what Most of us might believe.
Speaker 2:But unless, extreme unless extreme.
Speaker 1:That's a good. That's a good way to put it. Yeah, Do you feel like so in specific cases like LGBTQ, having relationships with somebody that's outside of your specific faith, do you feel like you had always kind of believed these things but had pushed them down and then this was able to like, do you actually like confront it head on, or were these things that you just learned about yourself as you went?
Speaker 2:So, with like the having relationships like outside of like my own faith, with something that I like have come to understand and to change, like I definitely did not like push that down for like I just did, like I just believed that this was the one way to do it, this was the one type of relationship that would work, the only like correct form of relationship, and I like truly believed that, which I think now is a little bit embarrassing to admit, but it's true.
Speaker 1:We all have those thoughts. We all have a thought that we're like how the hell did I believe that?
Speaker 2:I know. So, yeah, no, I genuinely believed that. And then I've come to you, I think, mature and think deeper about things and again I was exposed to other thoughts and traditions and worldviews with this fellowship and then I was like maybe this is not the one way to do things, you know. So, yeah, that was a thought that was definitely like not suppressed, it was just, it was just there.
Speaker 2:I don't think I've ever had like a different opinion about like the LGBTQ community. I think I've always supported them. I've never felt like they're going to hell or that they're this bad group in need of changing, or that you know, being gay or non-binary or bisexual or whatever it is, is like a sin or whatever or like a mental health, you know, issue or whatever. Like I don't think I've ever believed that I that was an opinion that I've always held like pretty strongly that nowhere in the Bible does it say that you know, gay people are going to hell or whatever, and I've been like always very against the church on that regard. I think the Lutheran church is less, in my experience has been less, I don't know vocal about that. I was never in a group or community real outside of that one knee shirt group who, like, spoke like that or thought like that. So yeah, that makes sense, yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, what so? The other thing you mentioned was that you had a. In talking about the interfaith program, you had a better understanding of other people's face, like. What are some of the like, the highlights that you can think of? Like, holy cow, I had no idea about that thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so last year, last semester, we we did this thing where we were like touring different places of worship.
Speaker 2:So once like a mosque and did Friday prayer. We went to Halal, which is our like Jewish student center, and did like a Friday Shabbat service with them. Where else did we go? We want to like a Presbyterian church on campus. So I think like being there, immersed with those people who you know, practice this faith and who know a lot about it and it's a big part of their identity, was really cool and like very eye opening.
Speaker 2:I had no idea, like the richness, I think, of these different faiths you know, and like when you're there and you're seeing these people pray and you're seeing them, you know, read parts of the Torah and you can see like I can't understand Hebrew, I had no idea what was going on.
Speaker 2:For the most part I was very lost. You know the whole service. But I was surprised that I found this kind of sense of peace. You know, it was just like a calming environment when you know the candles were lit and we were in a circle and they were reading parts of scripture and it was kind of a not like they were singing it, but it was very like rhythmic, rhythmic almost, and although I didn't understand it, like I could feel this kind of sense of just like peace and seeing how much it meant to people I think was really cool. That was kind of one of those experiences where, like, wow, other people have their own faith and their own experience and I'm not, like, the only person who feels this way when I practice my own faith type of thing, you know. Like Christianity and my own Lutheran faith means a lot to me, but Judaism means a lot to someone else and although our beliefs are different, I think there is some level of shared experience or which is cool to see.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's really cool. How do you, how do you square different religions, being a Christian, like, because you know a lot of people will say mine, mine is right, it's cool that you like that, but, but mine is mine, is the correct one Not to say that you, you think that. But how do you view other religions outside of your own in the context of like you believe this, like you have a faith that the thing that you grew up in is truth, so is it OK that other people have other faiths? That can also be true, like, does that work? How do you square that?
Speaker 2:You know, I've been thinking a lot about this recently and I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 1:Like I don't know if I have a great concrete like idea of it.
Speaker 2:You know, I believe in God, but I don't think that that is the right or corrects belief, in that everyone else is wrong, I think, and I've heard other people say and there is like this belief that like they're all the same God, that's just different interpretations or, you know, different ways that they view like the same God or whatever, which is I don't know too much about like that point of view, but I think that's interesting. I'm not sure if I disagree or agree with it like per se. You know, I'm not sure I don't think other people are wrong and I'm not even sure I'm right. Right, like what? If you know I believe that God, you know, gives us eternal life if we believe in him? What if you know when I die I'm wrong? You know?
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think part of that again is like the whole doubt kind of part and is natural and kind of bound to happen when you believe in something like this. So I don't know, maybe I'm wrong and I think I don't know. So I have a history certificate learning a lot about like I've taken classes, obviously in history, learned a lot about colonialism and I took like a French history class and now I was in like an African Christianity's class. So really learning and like seeing more about like the effects of Christianity, kind of throughout the ages and I'm not like obviously a lot of it was not productive or helpful.
Speaker 2:Like it harms a lot of individuals. We did a lot of harm under the pretence of like for God or like in God's name or whatever, and I can't believe or I don't believe that like God would want this, you know, like even today again with, like, the LGBTQ community, I think the church has a lot of harm weaponizing. You know the Bible and God's name and stuff like this. So I don't know, like I don't think we're the right way. That thought that like we are the right way has caused a lot of harm throughout, you know, centuries, and so I don't know. I'm kind of cautious. I'm more cautious now to say that I'm right and everyone else is wrong. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe they're wrong, maybe I'm wrong and they're right, maybe we're both right.
Speaker 2:I'm not entirely sure, like how necessary it is to think that, or like I don't know how important it is that I like square away an idea. I think as long as I'm satisfied with my beliefs and I have a good understanding of like myself and what I believe, I don't know if it matters if I think I'm right or am I wrong. I just am what I am, kind of.
Speaker 1:That's cool, I like that. Like what does it matter? You know, if you're comfortable and you have faith, then the rest is just arguments.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think this, like mentality, and trying to figure out like, if you're right or wrong, does more harm than good, you know, and I think there's things that are higher on the agenda. Right, like, again, I think we're called to love other people, to serve other people, you know, to stand up for the poor and the weak, and things like this. So I think I place a higher priority on that than like trying to decipher if I'm right or wrong and if they're wrong, like I just I don't think it's very productive. I think I have better things and more important things to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's cool. I saw the part of the Lutheran faith that I grew up in was a lot more conservative than the one you grew up in, so I dealt with like a lot of fear growing up with like going to hell If I don't believe this, all this stuff. It sounds like you don't have that type of fear, which is really cool, right, am I wrong?
Speaker 1:It sounds like you're just more open to just like hey, let's like my faith is my faith and my faith tells me to help, you know, the poor people, to help like just people in general, to accept other people for who they are. It feels like you're taking the best parts about Christianity and stuff that's like actually important and then just kind of like getting away all of like the negative, like hateful stuff.
Speaker 2:You know. Thank you, I mean that was nice. I tried to. I think like purity culture again, that was like very much propagated in this one group and I found myself in that mentality and it was like very difficult to take a step back and to kind of think about. I felt like a lot of guilt and stuff like that, to like think about this set of beliefs or whatever, and my own church like never kind of propagated this belief.
Speaker 2:It was when I went outside of my church to other whatever, and then I like came to realize that like I think purity culture and this is my own opinion kind of stems from a group of people in the church who are more afraid of like what their children are doing than like more focused on this, than like focused on the scripture and again serving other people. All this stuff I think it's a easier thing to control and to focus on than to actually try and you know, uphold the ethical code, for lack of better word. You know that we say that we have. So I mean there's places in the Bible that talk about, you know, sexual immorality and staying pure and stuff like that. So I'm not trying to say that I think it's completely unbiblical. I think it's been taken to a very extreme extent.
Speaker 1:Yeah, time to change.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but again I think it's less important and if I, you know, get to heaven or whatever and I find like, and I'm getting trouble for not perfectly following, like these rules or whatever, I think I can be content that I tried my best to hold up, hold like things that I thought were, like, more important than that right, like I think I don't know.
Speaker 2:I actually I have no idea, but yeah, I mean, I don't think I've never personally been like very afraid of hell, I don't know. I think the Bible says that if you believe in God and Jesus Christ and you accept him as your savior, that you will have eternal life. And I do my best to just say yes, believe that and just let it go. You know, yeah, the rest it's just up to God. Then I think it's just this blind faith that, like I'm doing the best I can with my faith in the way that I understand it now and that will change again in a couple years or weeks or months or whatever, as it has the past years and weeks and months. So I'm doing my best with how I understand it and that's just gonna have to be good enough. That's the best I can do yeah and if it's not, then it's not.
Speaker 2:But I can feel confident in my. You know that I tried my best yeah if it's, you know if I end up in hell or whatever. If hell is not even real, I don't know yeah, I mean you have.
Speaker 1:You have faith, you are trying to be the best version of yourself and help the community and the rest. Like, what are you gonna do? I?
Speaker 2:don't know what the hell you do for exactly yeah yeah, I like that.
Speaker 1:I like that. What so you're? You're quite a bit younger than me and I'm curious about how like your generation views religion like it are you? Are you the exception to the norm, or are more people starting to come back to believing something in this context that you are of like? Believe whatever you want, let's learn about it together. Or are you? Are you kind of like a smaller section of people that you know that like are actually involved in a faith?
Speaker 2:you know, I'm not entirely sure, I think. I'm having you speak for the entire generation right now.
Speaker 2:So that's not entirely fair so there's this like Gen Z for Jesus movement where and I've been exposed to this through that more niche group of people that I know where there is this revival in the church of Gen Z that are coming back to God and have a new thirst for God and it's like, and this new kind of movement in the church, a new awakening, and they're calling for, you know, more change in the church again. That's a very extreme view, I think so. I think within the Christian church to some extent, in some denominations, there is that like I have seen that. But outside of the Christian church I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 2:Maybe I think I have met people who are thinking more and I think it's our age right, like I'm 20 I'll be 21 in March my generation is kind of getting two points in our life where, you know, we're graduating college, we're getting jobs, maybe buying our own house, thinking about settling down, whatever, and it's exciting stuff, and I think, with this change, people are trying to find a sense of self and a sense of self in context with this bigger world and this changing world and things like that.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, maybe I personally know a few people who have been reading different, like religious texts and like ancient texts and whatever, and trying to find meaning or just understand that for themselves, which I think is really cool. So yeah, I think there's a group of people like myself and like others who are just exploring things and trying to like make sense of things. But I think there's also a large portion of my generation who have no interest in religion or spirituality at all. But I think that's interesting. Actually, I know this one person who is very anti-religious and doesn't exactly have I don't know if they can very like articulate well, like why they're like yes, which is fine.
Speaker 2:I don't need an explanation. I think it would be interesting to have a conversation. But I think they're very anti-religious and don't know why or don't know how to explain that, whatever. But then they find, like they think, people of faith or with faith, you know, are stupid or foolish because they believe in something they can't see, like why would you do that stuff, like that, which is a shame. But then they believe in like astrology, right, and I think if you think of the definition of faith is just having this belief or whatever in something right.
Speaker 2:You know she believes in astrology, she believes that like things will work out how they're supposed to work out. That belief is faith of some capacity. You know it's not faith in God or faith in you know a different religious tradition. But you know I thought it was interesting that she's very anti-faith, anti-religious people. But to some extent she is. She has faith you know right so I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think that's interesting, but there's a lot of just non-religious, non-spiritual people in my generation as well yeah yeah, and whereas, like I think before, I would see them, as you know this untouched like mission group to serve and to try and reach and to try and change, but again, as my thoughts on like evangelizing and have changed that, I don't feel the need to, you know, convert these people. I think I took a class on the Amish. I'm ranting, I'm sorry you're doing great.
Speaker 1:I'll keep going.
Speaker 2:I took a class on the Amish, which I've always been like really interested in when I see them drive by or whatever, but I never knew, like, what they believe and they are like a group of Christians or like their their belief is is a Christian belief, but something that I really have appreciated about them, as I learned about them last semester, is that they don't evangelize, they don't try and convert.
Speaker 2:They think and this I don't want to speak for all Amish people yeah, you know, and that's not my place, but what we were taught, what I learned through you know, my professor, and what not, is that they think, like their actions speak louder than words. So if they live a godly life, as they know best, you know, and as they try their best to serve again other people, be humble, be gracious, be loving, things like that, that people may turn to God, you know, and if or they could see God through them, whatever and I've really appreciated that view I think that's a view I've adopted that the way I live my life and how I interact with other people, I think is more telling of religion than if I hold a sign or try and have a conversation or whatever yeah, I totally agree with that.
Speaker 1:I like that, that frame of thought. So it sounds like you are a person that is open to having your mind changed or at least taking on information and doing with it what you will. Is there anything that you are specifically looking forward to learning this next year in the interfaith program or things that you're just like what's this thing all about with this specific religion, or even in your own religion? Is there anything that's like outstanding that you want to try to dig into?
Speaker 2:Hmm, you know I'm not sure I have always been. I think Judaism is a religion I know the least about almost and I don't know if it's because of my Christian background that they were kind of and we've seen this trend, I think, through the past couple years where, like Christians have this almost like romanticized view of Judaism and of Jewish people and Jewish tradition and practice. So I'm interested to learn more about that faith, just because I don't know much about it. Yeah, we have one Jewish fellow so I'm excited to kind of know more about that. And even, like Catholicism, I again have grew up kind of hearing about some of the more like negative things that they have done or do or whatever. But I think there's a lot of richness there too. So I have my.
Speaker 2:The way I approach God I think has changed to before.
Speaker 2:A couple years back I think I was very focused on God being this like approachable, almost friends, like figure, so the way like I would pray and things like that were very relaxed and very personal, which I think has a place on the purpose.
Speaker 2:But something that I like very much kind of respect and admire about Catholicism is their complete almost like reverence, very like their like high level of respect I don't know what other word I'm kind of looking for. The way I approach God now in the past couple months and has changed from something that's more like nonchalant and relaxed and personal to something that's more kind of respectful Not that that was like disrespectful before, maybe, so that's something I think I've kind of not adopted from Catholicism, but something that I see them do, you know that high kind of fear of God and not fear of like, like in the sense of being scared or whatever but of this like great on kind of reverence and respect that I think I was lacking in my own faith and my own, you know, faith groups or whatever spaces of worship that I think Catholics and Catholicism holds high and practices often. I think that's cool and that's something that I want to how I've changed and something I want to continue to do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's super interesting. That's super interesting. So I always say this is my wife's question. She always tells me to ask this at the, at the end of interview what, what didn't I ask that you wanted to try to convey or that you wanted to talk about?
Speaker 2:Hmm, you know I'm not. I'm not sure. I think I covered a lot about my own background with my face. I think it's important for me to say and for the people to hear, whatever, that the loudest Christian voices that you hear I don't think are fully representative of the larger Christian body and this is can be taken for anything like. The loudest Muslim voices you hear maybe aren't necessarily you know the consensus among the majority of like just your everyday Muslim people, but I think it's important for people to know that the people you see on the street you tell you that like you're going to hell and things like that aren't. They're not very like representative of Christian and you're like what we're supposed to be like or whatever. So I don't know. I like to like mention that because I think there's a lot of stereotypes and misunderstandings that have led to a lot of hurt and a lot of division.
Speaker 1:Yep, now I think it's well said I I have myself, admittedly, gotten into it with those dummies downtown, like outside of a Badger football game I remember they were. They had like one of the terrible signs about gay people going to hell and I lost it, I don't know. I had a couple cocktails.
Speaker 2:I guess, yeah, it really is man I like. It gives us a bad look.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's. It's exactly what they want to you know like they want.
Speaker 2:That reaction it anchors me the most when they're on, you know, on campus, right, and we have a pretty large not large, a decent sized like homeless population, people who are addicts and struggling and displaced and things like that and they stand like two feet away from someone who's a very obviously like a need and homeless and whatever, struggling, holding up a sign about like giving out free Bibles or that you need God.
Speaker 2:And then I, totally ignoring the person who's, like you know, two steps away from them, like and they don't even talk to people, right, like they're just kind of standing there with their sign and with their free pamphlet and I like can't help but think that, like I'm like why can't you just heard around, like, look at that person, use the money in the time and like the resources that you have that you would be, you know, standing there for hours to like help this person and, again, higher on our prior or it should be higher on our priority list than giving people a pamphlet they're going to throw out two feet away from you, yep, so that angers me because I think that's just goes completely against you know our theology. I think we have our motives wrong and I apologize to people who have been, you know, on the receiving end of some harm from that.
Speaker 1:No, it's, that's well said. Action. Speak out of the words and those dummies are their actions, are speaking louder than they're saying Speaking for all of us.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, but I think we can. We can speak for ourselves, even if it's not as loud.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love that. Well, jane, this was awesome. It was great to talk with you and hear your story. Wish you all the best in school and, yeah, let's, let's keep in touch.
Speaker 2:Thank you, yeah, thank you, it was great, yeah, yeah.
