Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
John Mathey: "Unearned Wisdom"
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John Mathey joins the podcast to talk about everything from teenage pregnancy, mental health and spirituality, to faith crisis. We talk about the role of critical thinking in shaping our ideologies and the lasting effects of key historical events. Our narrative moves through the nuances of faith, politics, and personal growth, showcasing varying perspectives and experiences.
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myles@findingmyreligionpod.com
Exploring Faith and Spirituality
Speaker 1Welcome to Finding my Religion . My name is Miles Stelps . Hey , there's going to be no preview at the end of this episode for next week , but stick around because I do have a pretty cool announcement . Also , have you told your friends about this show ? I know I always ask to like it online and do all that nonsense , but go tell a buddy , let's get some more people listening . Alright , we are back . I got another Sycamore guy joining me on the podcast . For those that haven't been following along , I grew up in Sycamore , illinois . It's a very small community and people are just loving the show , I guess . Right , john , I don't know man , he said you were listening .
Speaker 2It's a word of mouth in a small town man .
Speaker 1Well , first of all , like I said before Sycamore , I really appreciate you reaching out , appreciate you listening . It means a lot and it's cool that this is reaching . Even if it reaches like 10 , 15 people , I think that's really cool . So how are you doing today ?
Speaker 2I'm doing well . I just got back from the dentist , so my teeth should look spot on for the pod . Those parts still look great , yeah , right . So I mean , hopefully people are watching , not just listening , but they'll just take my word for it they look great there you go .
Speaker 1We'll make sure to show the teeth on TikTok at the beginning here It'll be like dentist TikTok and maybe it'll explode or something like that .
Speaker 1Love it Well , cool . So you would reach out to me , I think on Facebook , and you'd know . I think you said you went to high school with my sister and my brother-in-law . There's a guest that's going to be in the future , shay Quinn , who you know . He has her buddies , and Lucas Ray too , who is one of my favorite people on earth . I think he was like my third or fourth interview . So a lot of connections , but you and I don't know each other . So we're going to get to know each other over the next 45 minutes to an hour , which I'm super excited about . But let's start with the obvious man . We talked about how you're from Sycamore , but I mean , what's your faith and what's your spirituality at this point in your life ?
Speaker 2So over the last couple of years . It's been a big , I wouldn't say change , but just like a and I wouldn't say like a deconstruction , more of like a reconstruction , I suppose , because I don't think that my foundations of faith have changed much , but like kind of my overall worldview and outlook . I've just kind of like examined more and there's always those tough questions that are out there and so to avoid them sometimes is easier , but to like really shore up your foundation , to like really take on those hard questions , examine them and like it's you know , I've come to the point where , like I'm okay not knowing , like because the truth is either way . You know having faith or not having faith , you know to to there's things you're not going to know and it you know , accepting that reality is just like important and definitely gives you peace . But so how I would categorize my faith is like simply like a Bible believing Christian . So we grew up in a Lutheran Missouri Synod church , which I like to describe , to like other people , as like the Catholic Protestant church .
Speaker 2Yeah , just fucking perfect , like the whole liturgy and just you know it's very like , it's just less kneeling .
Speaker 2I suppose , but um , yeah , so now I go to Baptist church in Sycamore after .
Speaker 2So I left St John's when I was a senior in high school , and so part of the reason for that was I became a father at 18 years old , and so that it's not that I wasn't welcome at St John's , but it was , I suppose , like self guilt , like I don't , I don't deserve to be here or whatever , even though , like I mean , I would have .
Speaker 2I knew that wasn't true when , before my oldest son was born , his mother and I had a conversation about like baptism and so like she wasn't baptized and I was , and so we had a discussion before we even knew he was , you know , gonna be there . We're like 18 year old kids talking about like having kids in the future . It's like jinxed ourselves or something . But anyway , we had a discussion , was kind of like almost it was a little tension , contentious , I suppose . And then , out of nowhere , one night I'm at home and I get a text from birds . Like you know that conversation we had , yeah , she's like well , we have to like really think about that instead , like a positive pregnancy test , I'm like what ? So ?
Speaker 1yeah that's gonna be tough at 18 , right .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , oh yeah , and you know I'm glad I grew up quick and I'm really fortunate . You know , like I , you know we have plans for ourselves and then , like God's , just like here , no .
Speaker 1Now , this is your plan .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , this is the plan . So I'm sorry , and I'm sure I'll do this more than once , but I get very off track . But so your your initial question , like where's your you know faith now ? And then there was a follow up question .
Speaker 1No , just yeah , just starting like just having a jump off point . Honestly , I just like where we're at now . So I think you know it's interesting to talk to somebody that is , for lack of a better word , like appear . In the church that I grew up in , we were talking before we started recording , like my , my dad was the pastor of that church . Obviously that's well documented on this on this podcast . The first episode of this show is like a two hour dive into what I believe in , like my , my process of deconstruction after I left the church and Christianity , and so it's interesting to talk with somebody that my dad was your pastor you know as a kid . I mean , what do you remember about St John's as a kid ?
Speaker 2Yeah , I mean I was very young when St John's burnt down , yeah , and so like I want to , because what year was that ?
Speaker 1that was like I think I was a junior in high school , so it had to been like 2004 , I think .
Speaker 2Okay , yeah , so like I was in like fourth grade , yeah , what I remember about that specifically is like , because it was like church got set down on Sunday because of something in the organ , correct , yep , and then I was really happy because I woke up and didn't have to go .
Speaker 2I think , like most like fourth grade kids , like church is the last place I want to be totally on a Sunday morning . I remember like it's on some mornings as a kid I would like fake being dead , but basically just like holding my breath underneath the blanket and don't move because I don't want to be church . So , but so after it burnt down we had gone to like there was like . I remember the transition was like we were at like cornerstone in the gym and like for that I think , johnson control , yeah .
Speaker 1So the next Sunday was actually at Sycamore High School . That was the first service after the church and the firefighter I don't know why this came to my mind , but the firefighter that was injured in the fire because at the back part , like a brick hit him in the leg or something , so he was in a wheelchair . And so at Sycamore High School we had the first church service . He was there and you got standing ovation , everybody's crying , super emotional , but yeah . And then we went to Johnson controls and then , or yeah , whatever you said the cornerstone and then Johnson controls , or vice versa .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah . So I mean , I don't even have a good memory of that , if we even went to that service or not , but I remember just kind of like it being , you know , obviously a big shakeup . So , my , my , I don't . I remember your dad . I don't have any , like you know . I don't remember any like a sermon or anything , but my mom chose that church after coming from like there's another . I was a part of another church after leaving St John's . It's not Missouri Senate , it's LCMS or LCMC or something like that .
Speaker 2So , it's just like you know a different , a similar but different denomination . But so , growing up within St John's , so , like my , like pivotal moments in my youth when it comes to faith , or after your dad had left , and so Pastor Wyandhold and Pastor Metzger were the ones who would were the lead pastor or and right , I don't remember the associate .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2Yeah , associates , there we go . And so in that , like sixth to eighth grade , like confirmation area , and into high school , like faith was like really important to me , it was really . It was like on my mother's side , very , very important , the church had sponsored my great great grandparents coming into the country . Oh , wow , really , in Ottawa , illinois . So like I mean it's still a thing today where , like immigrants who can get sponsored by anybody , but churches really led the way generations ago where it's like we're going to bring people in , help them become part of the culture and so usually be like in a small town or whatever and it'd be sent in . So that's why a lot of you know communities were centered around the church , because the church is what brought people over , and so like we're going to take care of you and bring you into the community and you know what country brought it from .
Speaker 2Norway , norway , so I don't know where exactly , and it's really I don't know .
Speaker 2It's really interesting my answer into like the whole genealogy of everything , but it's just like cool and so like I don't think they were church planters , but they were definitely like very much a part of the church and so like that faith , you know , handed down generation to generation , something really important to me . My dad's side is very like culturally Christian . That was an interesting thing with me when I was starting to come into my faith and go and feel like confirmation and like you know , understanding , like why we do the things we do , and breaking down you know , the Bible was like seeing , like okay , we're supposed to be here on Sundays , but like my dad doesn't want to be here in Sundays and like and sometimes doesn't go on Sundays and like so what is that ? You know , what's that all about ? And so like I don't know , you start , you know I don't know like I put it . Well , I don't know my mother was like the spiritual , like head of the house , and so like I had questions about that , like that's , that's super no , that's super common .
Speaker 1It's very well . Especially at St John's it was common , like I remember a lot of sitting in the pew with the dad not there . I think I mentioned my , my episode of like it's Sunday , I mean especially during football season , like you got to go to that early service , so right , exactly .
Speaker 2Well , I mean so and I think that's pretty common , you know , not just St John's , but in like the American church in general is like I don't think like churches really built for like men , like , especially like young men , as is I don't know . I think like a call to act like like a church is like a home , like it's a place you come for like comfort and to be surrounded by other people . But I feel like like I don't know , I seem like there's like a need for meaning in young men today and so I feel like the church doesn't give like a call to action , like maybe it did in like previous generations . So I mean like I mean some people get that call and maybe like they serve as like a pastor or whatever , but are going to like missions and stuff , and that's not something that I had a calling for , but but yeah , so going through confirmation , backtracking , so going through confirmation , and so I was very solid in my faith but also kind of afraid , I suppose , at that time to really dive into the hard questions .
Speaker 1Well , where's some of those hard questions that you had ?
Speaker 2So the problem of evil and so that's something like . So as an adult now I really try to look for the head , the heavy hitter debates , you know , like the Hitchens versus shoot . I feel bad for not even knowing the apologize name .
Speaker 1I know exactly what you're talking about and everybody is screaming in their car right now . I know , I know I feel awful because , like , it's all good .
Speaker 2On his side of the debate and that's he didn't need a great impression Shoot now I feel really bad , but anyways , yeah , watching like the heavy hitter debates and not just like religion , but also like politics and just like worldview in general over the last few years , or at least really since like 2016 , is when , like I think for maybe a lot of people , like your dad , had mentioned how that really like shifted his outlook with , like the 2016 elections and that for me , that was really huge too , because , like John Lennox , you know like Is that you talking about ?
Speaker 1Sorry , say that again . John Lennox , is that the guy ? No , but he's good too . Oh no , sorry , I derail you , sorry .
Speaker 2Shoot . His last name is Craig .
Speaker 1Craig William Lane . Craig , there we go , there we go . We did it . Now I got it Alrighty .
Speaker 2All you had to do is say John Lennox .
Speaker 1Thanks , Google .
Political Ideology and Personal Growth
Speaker 2So yeah , 2016 election for me because , like I was starting , so 2016 , I was what it was like my second presidential campaign or presidential vote that I got , because my first time voting was like 2012 , which is very just kind of like okay , mom and dad , vote for the generic Republican that's who I vote for too and even like 2018 . But then 2016 was just like the biggest shakeup of politics , I think , in a lot of people's lives , just maybe in history . The bananas of just like the Donald Trump campaign was like hold on a second . This is not the atypical like conservative guy , right , in fact , like in a lot of ways is like the exact opposite .
Speaker 1Yeah , atypical .
Speaker 2So for me , I was like I had to like reexamine everything . So after that , like I don't know , I guess at that point maybe I would have called myself like a Republican . But after that I was like , no , if that's what that is , then that's not me . And so I think , like a lot of young people , you start looking into like different ideas and examining things . And what really got me kind of like looking elsewhere for like political ideology is I took a quiz call on iSideWithcom where you just like answer a bunch of questions politically and then you it like lines you up with the candidates that like best fit you , and so like it's like oh , like I'm not a Republican , I'm not a Democrat either , but I'm not a Republican .
Speaker 2What were some of the things that you were surprised about ? I don't know if this is really . I was surprised . I was surprised that like I was represented by a third party , a libertarian party at the time , and so much . What's that all about ? And I think like that appeals to young people too , because I think young people are more like ideologically fervent that's the right word Just like very , like it's the term or phrase zealous or the converted , and so like after like realizing that I like dove straight into like politics , like attempted to like run for office and get in that way .
Speaker 1But then , like you hit the Sorry , I mean you're up so so that like looking in , like inward looking of what I actually believe like started from a religious perspective , because you get your politics from religion and parents and then you're finding out more about yourself through just a simple survey , and so then that leads you to like question more Right and then pursue whatever it is on top of that .
Speaker 2That's super fascinating . Yeah , I mean because , like I've someone who's always been like interested in like history , politics , religion and so these you know it all that requires you to like ask questions and to dig into things if you like are interested in those things . So fast forward to today . I'm very cautious of like ideology , not because I don't have you know my leanings you know we all do . We all have you know our biases and the things that we , you know , believe . But I'm very cautious when it comes to like unearned wisdom and so oh , I know that's .
Speaker 1I have never heard that phrase . By the way , unearned wisdom Like what's that yeah .
Speaker 2So you know , I think a lot of times if someone's , if someone very smart and articulate can you know , bring an idea to you and they've done the hard work of like looking into it , sometimes they don't , they're just articulate and they sound smart , but taking things at face value , and that there are people I mean there are people who put in the work to you know , get their answers for whatever it is , and that's great and it's not necessarily that they're wrong , but like to just take that and say like , oh yeah , that's right , I agree with you .
Speaker 2Just because it sounds right to you , you know , they might be right or they could also just be feeding your biases . So I'm somebody that's very like agreeable and like very high in like openness , so like I love listening to other people and I really feed off like that conversation and regardless if I think someone's wrong , like I want to like hear what you have to say and like not necessarily , like I don't even like to push back , I just like to let people like talk , hear what you have to say , and then like maybe discuss , maybe go as far as debate , but I just I think like the way people think is so interesting and I think a lot of it just drives from like personality , personality and then , like you know , you're underlying , like tennis , what you believe , and so we , you know , we form a worldview and you know , plus your personality , is kind of just like how you see the world and that can shape .
Speaker 1That definitely shapes politics more than anything ? Yeah , no doubt so . So let's back up . So we , we are a kid in confirmation at St John's , like it sounds like you're just kind of taking it for face value at the time , I mean . But you mentioned you did have like big questions that you know were not really big questions at the time , but maybe later we were kind of dig it into it .
Exploring Beliefs and Personal Transformation
Speaker 1What , as a kid , when you're at St John's , like do you have any memories of oh , that's a really interesting concept , or that really kind of messed me up in a way , because I have those thoughts of like cool things and then also like not so cool things . You have any of those ?
Speaker 2I think so , going through confirmation . So obviously there's like different sects of Christianity . You got like Catholicism , calvinism , lutheranism , methodists , all all those different breakdowns . But I thought when the Ali ism .
Speaker 2Yeah . So I , it seemed , is like it was like , well , they're just wrong and maybe they are , but it's just like the very dismissiveness of like these other isms yeah . And so like I was like , well , when I was younger , going through confirmation , I kind of just took that at face value and hadn't considered those things . And you just kind of like you take the straw man that people give of each of those different isms and then you just dismiss them without hearing the steel man argument , so like I don't know if he had brought it up to you , but Shay Quinn and I had had conversations about he was really into Calvinism for a while and so like I'd never considered it . But I was like , all right , well , I'll look into it . You can't dismiss something without looking into it . And so I found all these very , very smart , very articulate Calvinists , preachers and scholars , and you know they made a lot of sense in so far as like like , well , I mean , I just found things .
Speaker 2I'm like , huh , I hadn't thought about it that way , and you know what that sounds good , but I never , because like I wouldn't tag myself as that , Like I liked it . But I'm like , well , I'm not going to like tie myself to that horse just because , like I'm not . I don't want to get pinned down with a label that I'm like , I'm not 100% sure of , but it I like there are labels . I wouldn't be upset if people called me like , if someone would call me a liberal , I wouldn't be upset with that . If someone recalled me a conservative , I wouldn't even be upset with that . Or progressive I don't think those are precise or 100% accurate , but depending on where you're coming from , you know I might fall into those categories . It depends on the specific issue . But I think , well , the issues of just like the moral , like political issues , of like our time , you know where it's , like gay marriage , abortion , so I think well , so I mean that church St John's definitely very conservative in those areas .
Speaker 1And , to be clear , some of the things that they're conservative about are against gay marriage , against gay relationships in general , against abortion , which you know , that's a hot button typically , but that's just the facts . And then what's the third one that they're really , really against as escaping ? But I mean , did they show you the Adam and Eve ?
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , when you brought it out to your dad , yeah , I actually you know what ? I don't think I saw like it , but I think somebody else was saying it because they had seen it .
Speaker 2And so like it trickled down from there , but um , yeah , so I mean those . So I've been thinking a lot about those two specific for you know , since then really , and kind of like trying to like make sense of what I think about them in general , because I think there's a kind of like a cultural , somewhat consensus on both of those issues .
Speaker 1Whereas yeah .
Speaker 2I mean like even people who are against , you know , gay marriage are just kind of like whatever that battles over it's done , like you know it is , it's the law of the land , is what it is . And on abortion , like I mean , I suppose I would have somewhat of like a radical view on that , formed by both like faith and like I've examined the issue and kind of like changed over time . Well , so I guess I wouldn't be upset if someone called me pro life . For a while I was pro choice when I would start of going through like a political transformation . But I think becoming a father and kind of looking at it that way does definitely change you in a lot of ways . You know .
Speaker 2You know , obviously that's a really heated debate .
Speaker 2We don't have to like get into that or anything , but we want it doesn't really jive with the whole , the whole , but yeah .
Speaker 2So I mean yeah , I mean like those questions get brought up , you know , because you're going to school and you're talking to people about issues and then you have , you know , your church telling you this is what we believe , yeah , but it's , you know , and it's like okay , here's the cheat sheet , here's the answers , as opposed to like go think about it and figure it out for yourself .
Speaker 2So back to kind of like the unerred wisdom , like if you really have a strong opinion about something and you're willing to like die on that hill or whatever , you better go and think about that thing for a hundred hours , like really think about it , really examine that issue , because I think a lot of people is very just like whatever my group thinks , that's what I think , and then not a lot of , not a lot of room for diversity of thought . You know , I think most people probably agree on most things . You know , everyone wants their kids to be well taken care of . They want to live in a safe neighborhood . They want , they want to be treated , you know , equally as anyone else . But there's , you know , wedge issues where we're all very divisive .
Speaker 1Like you kind of touched on a little bit . You know you get pregnant at 18 , not the end of the world by any means , but for some communities it's a big freaking deal , oh yeah there's a big stigma . Yeah , I was just going to say the church that we grew up in . That's probably a big stigma . I mean , what was the feeling that you had when that happened ? Did you feel like , was there a guilt factor ? Was it like we're all going to be okay , or like , talk to me about just that experience ?
Speaker 2Well there , was definitely a guilt . It was kind of like oh , I let my parents down and that's you know . I'm sure that's not very sad , probably typical , honestly yeah .
Speaker 2Well , that's typical probably for , like you know , anyone in that circumstance which is like , oh man , you know I was irresponsible and now I have to do this , I have to take care of this kid . And so it was always like I'm going to do what I have to
Journey of Faith and Parenthood
Speaker 2do . It's funny , like as a kid , like I never wanted to be anything really other than being a dad , like I wanted to be a bricklayer , but that's just because my dad was a bricklayer , and so that's good . And then I wanted to be a teacher because there were , you know , like role models or teachers and I wanted to do that . And then you know it just . But really , what I wanted to be is just like a dad . And so , like at 18 , I was like , you know , I am not ready to do this , but I'm ready to do this , like I was built for this . So , yeah , so . And then I had my second son at 20 years old . So two before I was 20 years old , before I was 20 , before I could even drink , I had two kids and diapers .
Speaker 1So but you lived a life , man , Good Lord .
Speaker 2So you know , those first two years , though , I felt very separate from you , know the church community , not because anyone made me feel outside . You know , I had nothing but acceptance from you , know the people in my life . But you just , yeah , you have that guilt , you have that like oh man , I made this mistake .
Speaker 2But , honestly , like I mean , that's not even biblical to feel that way . I mean , if you're someone who believes in Christ , then it's like no , like yes , okay , you can repent of your sins , but it's like that's covered man , like that's what grace is , like he did the work so you don't have to live within that guilt . You know it's okay . You know , like we all fall short . I mean that . So , and that's how , like I conceptualize what sin is , and I think that's kind of what the word means . To begin with is , you know , missing the mark . And so like , yeah , okay , like made the mistake where you know life's going to be a little bit harder now , you're going to have to make sacrifices you otherwise wouldn't make , and so , yeah , I mean that's just you roll the punches and you move on .
Speaker 1Yeah , but so for you , when that happens , what ? So you said that there wasn't anybody . That necessarily said anything to you , but there was this feeling , this stigma behind it , especially from a church perspective . Was that the impetus for them leaving the LCMS church ? Or was that another thing that happened , or was it gradual ?
Speaker 2Well . So , yes , because I don't think after my son was born I'd step a foot back in St John's Other than I went to a Christian or a Christmas service , because it's just a beautiful church for service . But no , it's kind of like other sins you don't have to talk about , right , no one can see them . There's something you're dealing with and you just afraid of God about , but in one it's like you have a child and it's like , oh , you're bringing this child and we all know you're not married into the church . It's like , oh , everyone can see this . But again , that's all self-guilt and unhealthy , an unhealthy way to feel . But it's not uncommon for people of faith to do that , to put guilt on themselves for sin , and from a Christian perspective that makes zero sense . So then the progression from that was going to move into a separate church my grandmother , so we're all pretty Lutheran on my mom's side , so it's just a separate Lutheran church . And so I got really involved with that , especially after me and my son's mother split . So it was like I have to get involved with something and I have to give my kids some sort of foundation and community to be a part of .
Speaker 2Did you guys go to Salem after that . No , you went to Trinity Lutheran in Decal . Okay , sure , so I think they're the same . Yeah , both of them see the same belief . Yeah , so , being a part of that , I was surfing on the church council and everything and I was one of the younger people to do that and it's just like you feel like a call of like man . I got to do something , I got to contribute something to this and everyone is happy to have a young voice there .
Speaker 1Yeah , I'm sure , I'm sure I do find it interesting that you and again I'm coming at this from like a perspective like I was the pastor's kid , like I was in it , like super , super hard core , and I talked about this a little bit Like not like we're going home talking about like Bible verses or anything like that , but like I just like looking back on it . I have all these different memories , and some of them make me really angry , and hearing stories like the one that you're telling me , or a couple other ones of people trying to get married in the church that are same sex and like obviously you can't do that they make me really angry and really sad . And so I find it interesting it's not good or bad .
Speaker 1I find it interesting that when you have those feelings of like I fucked up or like this like everybody's going to think less of me that you go to a different congregation but yet in the same sort of like right thumbprint of , like the LCMS church , like , was that something that just you know ? You're like obviously 18 , you're not . Your brains ain't fully formed yet , right . Right , exactly , you just do whatever kind of seems right , but did you have any thoughts of like oh , maybe I should check out something else . Or like do I even believe in God at this point ? Like , was your faith ever shaken Like anything like that ?
Speaker 2Not at that point . That actually came a little later . So no , at that point I was just like , no , like I just need to be in a church and , like you know , my grandmother goes here More like a comfort .
Speaker 2Yeah , more of a comfort and just having like community and like this . You know , I know this is important , so I should be here and so and I want my kids to be here , also have a similar upbringing , and just be like surrounded by these people that you know , you know love and care , you care for you . So yeah , but so then after that , so I serve on like the church council and so when you do that , as like a young person , like I knew , going into , it's like I I'm not going to go in here and give like strong opinions , I'm just going to kind of like learn for the first like gear or so , just like see how it all works and it is interesting , you know . You see like the politics of the church that aren't about like public policy but just kind of like how the church is run , is very , very interesting . But to see kind of like the schisms too , where , like the great word .
Speaker 2By the way , there's the gossip and it's just like aren't we like all in the same team here ?
Speaker 2Like aren't we trying to like , help , serve the community ? And it felt more like and I'm not trying to crap on the church , too , because it's like great people doing awesome things but it just felt like it was like this is like more like an Elks club or a Moose club of just like , okay , we're like , we go here , we do the thing , we drink the coffee , we sing the songs , then we go home and so and there's nothing inherently wrong with that either Like that's , there's zero problem with that . You know , it's a community of people who care about each other and care about the community , and that's awesome . But it was just kind of like I need to , I feel like I need to do something else , and so what ended up happening was like a pastor had left , and so then there was a big kind of , you know , shake up of who's going to be next or whatever , and they ended up hiring a pastor . Well , none of this is important to me , so let's just kind of like skip over this part and go more so , but after that .
Speaker 1So this is like 2020 , ish , yeah because it was like a height of COVID .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , because I remember we had like service out in the parking lot and so , and so this is like when my daughter is born . So I was married in 2020 .
Speaker 1So that's your second , that's your second child , right .
Speaker 2My third , my third there are two boys a high school girlfriend , and then me and my wife got married in 2019 . And then our daughter was born in 2020 , right before , like the lockdowns and everything .
Speaker 1Yeah , not so awesome with the lockdown . I thought he's got pregnant during that time and it was tough to watch and just be like I got , I got I can't go into like be with my wife even for a checkup . Like it's got to be tough , right , right .
Speaker 2So then , as like hey , so my wife , you know , started going to church with us as well . At that church Trinity Lutheran and then when that whole like breakdown , kind of like in the church changing with pastors , everything , I was just like you know , like I don't know , I don't think that we fit in here , and so we , I decided to step down and we left and I , just for me , I was like I want like a church that's like active , is like you know , doing things within the community , like serving people , and I think like I wanted to have like the converse , real conversations about the hard questions with people that like like more so like my age , and going through like similar sort of like simply asking similar questions and having those discussions .
Speaker 1So you were , you're a part of a church , or you were part of a church , an organization , that you just accepted it , right , like you . Here's what it is . Believe it or don't . You don't want to believe it , you can get the hell out , there's the door . But I think for our generation , like we want conversation , like we want maybe not to debate , but we want to be able to ask the question and have it not just be like , well , this is the answer . It sounds like you weren't getting that , and I know , especially with the LCM S church , like they're not great at outreach , so you weren't getting that either , and that those were like the . Those are the two big reasons why you try to see something else , or yeah , that she just didn't fit in .
Speaker 1Was it just like ?
Speaker 2right , right . It was definitely an older crowd and , like you know , when you're , when you're the youngest person , that like an older church , like they look to you for the enthusiasm . It's not like I wasn't enthusiastic , it's just kind of like I was like kids doing these days .
Speaker 2I don't know where I'm fitting in because , like they , you know they , they know how to like , get . They have all like the nuts and bolts figured out of how to operate a church . But it's like you know , churches are always want to like , bring people in and stuff . And so it's like I see a young family like all right , like we got to get used so we can get more of you .
Speaker 1Yeah , so let's just tick , tock things .
Speaker 2Right , right . So , um , at that point when we were leaving that church , I'm friends with Shay and some other guys that are really getting into and asking questions and trying to figure out this what do I believe ? Who is God ? And so we've gotten into a small Bible studies in people's houses , having these discussions , reading the Word and then actually talking about it and really chewing on it . And so I get very like I'm zealous . At this point I'm like all right , I'm ready to go , I'm charged up and I want to get involved in not necessarily evangelize , but just get my stuff in order , I suppose . But so I'm doing that and getting involved with that . At the same time , I'm getting involved in politics . It's exciting to talk about ideas and stuff . And when you know a little bit , when you have somewhat of a foundation , but you don't know enough , you think you know more than you do . It's kind of like adolescence for a teenager . It's like , okay , you learned one thing and now you know everything .
Speaker 1You're not dangerous ?
Speaker 2Yes , yeah , exactly , and so this is like I'm the 20 , see 20 , so from like 23 to 25 , I'd say I'm like really really amped up . I got to do stuff Actually . No , I'm sorry , no into like 27 . So where it gets interesting is being very like zealous , and what's happening in my life , too , is like COVID's happening , and for me , anyways , I'm having like the best financial stability in my life that I've ever had . Let's go .
Speaker 1Yeah , exactly exactly .
Speaker 2So at this point I'm like I'm not working as hard but I'm making more than I ever have , and it's kind of almost like imposter syndrome , where like I have to do more now so .
Speaker 1I have to do more .
Speaker 2I have to take on more responsibilities and stuff like that . And it was kind of like trying to like fill a hole or something . It's like when something's going well , you don't just sit on it and be happy about , oh , this is going great , wonderful , like after going through being a young person , having kids and dealing , you know , just kind of like trying to figure out life from a young age , trying to grow up fast and then finally being like stable and being like , whoa , things are good , you grasp for more . And so where my faith story gets very interesting was at 26 , right before my 27th . I spent my 27th birthday in a psych ward and so my faith actually ties really into that .
Exploring Mental Health and Spirituality
Speaker 2Because as people , as human beings , we're very narrative driven and so because how the way I look , I've come to look at it is like what makes us different than other animals is ideas and projecting like into the future and thinking about the future . So the reason we have ideas is so they can bad ideas can die , and then so that we don't have to . And so having a bad narrative well , narratives are fine , stories are fine , you can learn through stories . But if you have a bad narrative , you can just dispense with it . And so what I had was just a bad narrative of like I have to lead my family , I have to be the spiritual leader of this home , and the very like , I suppose even somewhat like misogynistic way of like and I suppose I don't even like the term , but like I suppose it's like , yeah , it's very like toxic masculinity whereas , like it's like .
Speaker 2I have to , I have to fill this role or whatever , and it's like , ok , maybe , but it's like , what do you mean ? Have to fill this role ? It's like you have to . You know you have to take care of your family , but like you don't have to , I don't know .
Speaker 1Well , to be fair , like that's how you and I were raised , I mean , yeah , sure , that's what LCMS preaches . Like they still don't allow women pastors and there's a reason for that . Yeah , do you ? I mean we can cut this out . But I mean , do you feel comfortable talking about , like , what led you to you know that place and the psych ward , or no ?
Speaker 2absolutely no . So and it's all like because I well , so I went once and I spent my 27th birthday there , and and it's actually not uncommon for like late 20 year olds to find themselves there , because it's kind of like a transitionary period for a lot of young men , sure . But what sent me there was kind of like well , it was psychosis of like thinking , I feeling like I was spiritually elevated , and what it really was is bipolar .
Speaker 2Oh , wow I found out I was bipolar and , honestly , the first , that first stint there , I didn't really believe it . Yeah , I thought it was just like , oh no , I'm not getting enough sleep , I'm not eating right , and so once I get those things figured out , like it'll go away . But it was like it was a dark place and felt like , oh , this is a spiritually you know , I'm in a spiritually bad place and it felt like this oh , god's going to come get me or whatever . That has to be terrifying , man . Oh , it was .
Speaker 2It was terrifying and so like finding you know , and then so it happening the first time , it was scary , and so you're surrounded by these other people who are going through you know their own thing and you're just trying to get yourself better , right . So I convinced myself like I'm fine , you know , it was just lack of sleep and whatever , and hadn't really like examined what the core issue was there , and so I went back a month later to a separate one , and so in that time it was like it wasn't . I was not suicidal , but there is like suicide in my family , so it's always just something I'm very like scared of like that and like schizophrenia is in the family .
Speaker 2So it's like , yes , like that's something that could be a thing . Like that , you know , and what drives people there . You like you really don't know , like mental health is like it's crazy the effects it can have , and like when it's happening to other people you just don't get it . But then when it happens to you , you're like oh , wow , and it really shakes you . We're like I didn't want to die , but I felt like I was going to or like I had to , and it was terrifying . Like you have this , like you're seeing everything , like I wish , like I like make a movie of like what my brain was going through in the time . It was terrifying . Like you're seeing like go ahead .
Speaker 1No , I was just gonna say like try to come up with some sort of analogy , and the only thing I could think of is like our , our grandparents you know , I say our generally like our grandparents , our generation's grandparents , were in World War Two . Like all the men went there . They never talked about it , but it was this terrible , terrible experience that was extremely pivotal , and everything that they did in life PTSD , the gamut , all that stuff you and I can't understand it . Right , the only thing that we can do is like watch the first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan and then we're like right , oh , I get it a little right . Like not in it , in it , but you kind of see it .
Speaker 1Like I feel like it's the same thing with mental health issues , where it's like you can describe it , you can talk about , like what you were seeing . It's like all right , like cool , not cool , but like all right . Like I'm hearing you , but like until you experience , I've got to imagine that it's just nothing really compares and like no words can really come to mind . They're like this is great .
Speaker 2No , no , yeah , and it's so . And that's the interesting thing is like when you're going through somewhat of a faith crisis already and then you have this , you know mental health problem , and then it's like , okay , well , which is which here , and you know , and what is spirituality and what is , you know , mental illness , and where you know , where do those things converge ? And it can be tricky too . And so you know because I was someone who was like very like , I mean like I don't want to take medication , but it's like you have to lean on understanding of other people who've gone through this . What it took to get me through , to get me to okay , I have to reexamine this , which is hearing the testimonies of other people that have gone through it .
Speaker 2It really shook the whole . Okay , but what is spirituality and what is just the chemicals in your brain going around ? Yeah , two different things .
Speaker 2Yeah , definitely . Then you get into the questions of determinism and free will and trying to examine that , okay , how much of this is just like ? Oh , I just so happen to be born in Sycamore , illinois , and my parents are this and the culture is like this . That's why I think these things , as opposed to like you know , then some people just like , well , I don't know . You ask yourself what is God's will . Then you get into the question what is God ? So like the past since that happened , the past , so I'm 29 now . So the past two , two and a half years , I've just been trying to unpack what that means .
Speaker 2So I open it up and it's saying like I'm a Christian and I believe in the Bible . So what does that mean ? Like , at face value , that sounds pretty simplistic , but really like , when I say I believe the Bible , what does that mean ? So , yeah , well , it means I believe it's true , but what does that even mean ? So I believe it's a collection of books . That's what the Bible is . It's not a book , it's a collection of books , and so and they're the , I guess I would still consider them the generic word of God . But what does that mean ? So to me , what God is is truth , but it's more than that too . So when I'm trying to conceptualize God on multiple levels , so because it's all okay , us growing up , I'm sure , like you agree , the church we grew up in is like , no , it's creationism . It's one of the other things that would be kind of like counter to like science as we know it .
Speaker 1I don't know dude , but like I just had a really vivid memory of something that I should have talked about my wife about , of like me bringing up a freshman year in high school to our biology teacher in second world Illinois , like why we don't teach creationism . Like I probably suppressed that memory up until the moment . Yeah , dude , like it's fucking wild man Like it's . Oh yeah , it's crazy .
Speaker 2Oh yeah , and I .
Contemplating Religion and the Universe
Speaker 2What's sad for me too , though , is like well , okay , so I believe in evolution , and I believe , like you know , obviously , like I'm not a biologist and I'm not somebody who understands how the cosmos came to be . I think my simplified version is just saying , like I don't think that everything can come from nothing . You know it's a very simplistic argument , but I just like to me that doesn't have like logical sense , but I think , like the creation story I don't , you know it's a story , it's a how we came to be and so like excuse me , so , but the evolutionary process , I think , gives more like like credence to a designer . I think , like the likelihood of our planet , some things , you know , you learn a couple of things here or there that are just like really interesting . So , like for me , like okay , if it wasn't for Jupiter , the earth wouldn't exist . So the placement of Jupiter and the size of Jupiter and its gravitational pull is the reason why the asteroid belt isn't just like hitting the Earth constantly .
Speaker 2Yeah , yeah , it's wild and it's like , oh , that's very interesting and so like I don't know , I guess I don't . I on a day to day , like I don't , I'm not an expert on anything and a lot of most people aren't . Most people are just you know , you work a day job , you come home , you love your family , you take care of what you have to take care of and that's it . And but there are people who have like the time and ability and just the brainpower it's just like really examine like the intricacies of the universe and all kinds of things , and so the more you know , the more you know that you don't know a lot , and so that that can be a very uncomfortable place , but it can also be like finding peace in that , I think , is really important .
Speaker 2I thought that was really cool listening to your episode where it's just like it's okay to not know , yeah and so , but like the pursuit of truth , I think , is always just so valuable and you know , and it doesn't matter what culture you're from , like the pursuit of truth is important . So I think , like any religion that's kind of try anything about religion that tries to hold you back from like pursuing that , I think it's problematic and it just shows like kind of like I don't know , a weakness in religion and so like I don't like the word , I don't know , I don't relate well to the idea of religion , but I don't know , I'm not someone who's just like , oh , I'm spiritual , like I do believe in , like specific religious tenets , but like I don't know legalism and religiosity , I just not , I don't know , I don't jive well with it , I suppose .
Speaker 1Sure , but I mean to go back to it . Like , you believe in God , correct , yep , believe in Jesus the whole eternity , all that good stuff . So you know , for all intents and purposes , you know John is a Christian . What , what got us there ? Like , to the point where you can say that you know , because we have this , this really , really pivotal moment in your life where it's like , oh my gosh , like I have , I have something that can affect my family , my well-being myself . Right , how do you go from ? Like , because you talked about that , the , the intersection between religion and mental health . Like , right , was there a point where you struggled with the fact of ? Like , is there a God ? Like , is everything that I've been doing to this point to believe this thing not true ? Like , were those thoughts there and how did you deal with that ?
Speaker 2Yeah
Exploring Doubt, Truth, and Peace
Speaker 2, yeah . And I even had like a moment , another . You know , I had a moment sitting in church where I had this like deep , like I don't even know what it would be . It was like boom , like oh , do I believe that ? Do I , you know ? Do I believe any of this ? And it was , you know it's gonna be scary , oh , super scary . But you know , kind of like taking a step back and being like , well , hold on a second , hold on a second . Yes , you do believe , but but but like yes , and yes , and like where does that doubt come from ?
Speaker 2And it's , and the doubt is like , because you think you have to know everything , it hits you like , well , if I'm wrong , and I'm teaching , you know , my kids this , you know , I'm teaching Sunday school it's like whoa , what am I , you know , am I going to stir someone down the wrong path , or whatever ? And so I had to like kind of step away for a little bit , like I was , you know , still going to church and not changing what I'm doing around the house or taking care of my family or anything . But it's just kind of like , oh man , I got to step away and just kind of like examine these things . And so what brought me back was just , I don't , you know , the Bible doesn't explain everything . I mean , how and how could it ? You know , there's not a book that explains everything about anything .
Speaker 1So everybody poops , that's a pretty good one .
Speaker 2There you go , you got me there , but . But when I say the Bible is true , is the meaning of it is true , like the stories in it are true , whether it's like actually historically true and you know , accurate , or if it's like the lesson you get from this is true , and diving deep into those things you know you get the truth out of it and so , like that's the point of Christianity and probably should be in any religion , is like to find truth and peace . And so having that found , I think having a foundation , any foundation , whatever your worldview is , having a strong foundation , is what gives you peace . Cbt what's the truth ?
Speaker 1part about that , like if you're finding like the peace thing , I think is self-explanatory , but like what's the truth ? Part CBT that's the point .
Speaker 2Oh truth in the Bible or in Christianity ?
Speaker 1No so maybe I misunderstood . So you mentioned truth and the whole point is to find truth and peace . So the peace thing I feel like is self-explanatory . But is it truth in understanding what God is ? Is that the truth part , or ?
Speaker 2is it ? Yes , I'd say so . Or what good is yeah ? Yeah , I mean good and evil .
Speaker 1It's a tough question .
Speaker 2It's a tough question what is truth ?
Speaker 1I mean not necessarily what is truth , but like in the sense of if religion provides truth and peace , the truth . Part of that part is , I think , confusing for people that maybe don't believe it . Like , okay , my truth would be that everybody is equal and that we have to do work individually to understand other people's struggles . If I could condense it down , that would be my truth . But coming at it from a Christian perspective , it might be completely different . It might have those elements in it , but the truth piece . There might be some differences in there and so we don't have to harp on it . But I was just curious because that truth and peace thing can be ambiguous , I think , for people that aren't Christian .
Speaker 2Yeah , I'd say so . And it's like I think , well , we all recognize truth , because , I mean , I think well , there's truth in any religious texts , there's a reason why millions of people follow all these different religions because they all carry truth . And so , to be dismissive about those things , I think , ultimately , getting back to loving having conversations with people , it wouldn't matter what your faith is For me and you , miles , we have similar upbrings but we're in different places , but we're able to have conversations with one another , listen to one another .
Speaker 1No , fuck you All . Right podcast over .
Speaker 2Well , I think that's , to me , the most virtuous thing about Christianity is like blessed are the peacemakers , and so the point to me to be a Christian is to pursue peace with one another , and so to find peace with people that come from a different worldview is like you both have to both be trying to pursue truth together . Regardless if you have the same background , it's like , hey , no , but we're here together on this journey through life , and so we got to cooperate , and so , even if we have different worldviews , it's about working together , and so I suppose that's where , within my faith and also politically , I've come along ways where peaceful cooperation is the underpinning of everything . So whether that's I don't know .
Speaker 1I like that phrase though peaceful cooperation , I think in the context of talking about religion or politics or anything that's divisive , like where are the three things you don't talk about at dinner ? It's like money , politics and religion . That's like the old school of thinking , and that's why you and I are sitting here is because I don't like that . I want to talk about these things , but in a way that is appropriate as a human being , because you and I grew up in an era of table news , where that stuff can ruin your day if you let it sit with you , depending on what frame of mind you're coming with .
Speaker 1So I think that rings true the peaceful cooperation . That's a really good phrase . The last question I've got for you , I think is an important one that I asked a lot of people that believe anything , whether you come from a different religion or not from Christianity . I got to be careful because I always come from this place of a different religion and that even goes to my bias as , growing up as a Christian . There's other stuff out there , and so that leads me to the question of what is your impression not impression , but what is your thought even about other religions as it corresponds to Christianity , Because there's a lot out there . Have you thought about it ? Well ?
Speaker 2yeah , that was always an interesting conversation within confirmation and onward , because people would ask questions that I , when I was going through confirmation , I wouldn't even ask the question . I was just kind of dismissed that because the pastors , the authority or whatever in the room and they just dismiss it so easily . I'm like , oh yeah , duh yeah , the answer right there . But when it comes to other religions , I mean I think I'm like you and so far as like , I want to just consider what you have to say and how it's affected you and so it's very much like , kind of like , show me your fruit . So you have this religious upbringing and you can be a quote unquote good person from any different worldview , from any religion .
Speaker 2I mean , there's always the question of like , ok , you're a Christian , and what about the African ? Or like indigenous person that's never heard of Jesus , what about that ? And it's like , oh well , that's a tricky question , isn't it ? So I don't know . I'd say , right now , in a place where , like , I want to consider things I don't know , you know what Miles this whole podcast , like I feel very disorganized and being able to talk , no , I don't , I don't , I don't , I don't .
Speaker 1I feel like I feel like the stream of consciousness is good because , like it shows what this is all about in terms of this project of like . This isn't like you're not meant to be a religious scholar coming on here and talking about like what you believe . Like it is OK to have conflict , it is OK to have your mind changed , not that like I'm trying to change your mind .
Speaker 1You're trying to change mine , but the sense of like , if I asked you a question and it's just like this is why this is like what my brain is doing , like that's OK too . I don't think . I don't think it was a what's the word I'm looking for now . See , now you got me in terms of what let's , but I know , I , you know . Going back to what you're saying , like it's , it's been great , like , honestly , just to hear like stream of consciousness , like that's awesome .
Speaker 2Yeah , like I mean , I had things I was like , huh , what do what it lasts ? And , like you know , listening to you ask questions for other people , I'm like huh , wonder what would I say to that ?
Speaker 1And just like , here's a question for you . Yeah , what ? What's a question ? You've heard me ask that you have that . I didn't ask you that . Maybe you wanted to talk about .
Speaker 2Oh shoot .
Speaker 1Now I'm really going to spot and .
Speaker 2I can't even . I can't even like I got . Now you can go through a conversation and you try to think back oh , what was I thinking like five minutes ago ? And you just really lost . That's how it looks like .
Speaker 1It's like the . I always think of the George . Like I don't know if you watch Seinfeld as a kid , but yeah , yeah , yeah yeah , the George Costanta thing of like well , I was the jerk store and they're a lot of you like that , the perfect comeback was like on the way back , right , right , right , ten minutes later , dude , that's like my entire life .
Speaker 2Yeah , exactly , oh , yeah , oh yeah . I think that most people is like ah man , I wish I had the quick wit , but no , no , I don't know , if only , if only .
Speaker 1I think .
Speaker 2I think I'm in a place today where , like you , just want to be grateful for what you have and where you're at , and being grateful for where , like you've been placed right now . Because I think you know , in today's society it's like we have tons of reasons to be in that have anxiousness and depression and all these things and a lot of it's just like chemical imbalance . But it's also how you look at the world , because if you have like a bad narrative of how you see the world , you're going to be an anxious mess . You're going to feel depressed . You know you can't help . You know the chemicals in the world . You know the chemicals in your brain maybe take medication that help you , but you also have to have the right narrative in your head about your life and the world around you , because you know , if you look around , you find something to be anxious about , you find something to be depressed about , and so I think , fundamentally , my faith is very much like . It gives me peace and I think for most people , you know , that's that's why I think we as human beings are just like we are religious creatures , we're like narrative driven creatures , and so it gives you foundation and it helps you .
Speaker 2You know , save yourself from anxiety and insulate yourself from , like you know , the world of like it's . It's terrifying out here , to be honest . You know , and and so you know , especially living in a society where it's like I'm not worried about , like my next meal or anything , but you know there's plenty going on in the world to worry about . We want something to worry about when things are fine and so , like , what I've learned in the last few years is just to relax and be OK with with things as they are . And I mean you know that's even within scripture . It's like the sparrow is not worried about tomorrow , but you know it , you know survives tomorrow anyways . So , like , worrying about today and doing the right thing right now , today is just what all of us should be doing Now we're not all going to agree on what the right thing is all the time .
Speaker 2But you know , hey , that's , that's a conversation you can have .
Gratitude and Living in the Moment
Speaker 2So , having that grateful , I think I see a lot of today like a lack of gratefulness for the past , because the past was ugly to today's ugly . No , no , no person is perfect , other than JC , obviously . But you know , nobody's perfect . Nobody's perfect that's Jesus Christ for the layman .
Speaker 1Yeah , yeah .
Speaker 2You know , we look through history and we see these people that are broken and had things wrong with them , but also , like did great things , and so , like you know , I want to be grateful for that , like I'm grateful for my faith and the people who brought our faith , to my faith , to , to , to where it is today .
Speaker 2I mean , so we come from like a Lutheran background and so , like I think about the Protestant Reformation and Martin Luther and so like in his , so like in our day , the podcast , you know , the Internet , the long form conversation , like that's like how ideas get out there .
Speaker 2But I think so I have grateful , I'm grateful for the moment they're in right now , and I think about Luther then , with the Gutenberg press and like that new technology of being able to get you know words on paper and give that out to everybody , you know , and how , if it wasn't for that and the Protestant need for , like we have to get this word into everyone's hands , that literacy exists in the way that it does today , because , well , so I mean Martin Luther taking like OK , we can't just have this in Latin , it can't just be us priests like me who can read it and have it , everybody has to have these words and so that mean , you know , and today you have , like Protestant missionaries going to , like other countries just to get a dialect , a language that doesn't even have a written word , like a written word , so that they can learn about Christ .
Speaker 2Well , maybe this , this tribe or this village doesn't end up becoming Christian , but now they have a language that's written that they didn't have before and so , like , if anything , you can be thankful for that . And and I don't know why I got on that tangent , I don't know , it's just something I'd been thinking about the past couple of days of just one like I love it , I love .
Speaker 1I love the just , the , the gratefulness of it and just living in the moment .
Speaker 1Like the other day is funny , my , so my dad's working on like mindfulness and like being present moment , which is something that he's been terrible at , and like our family has kind of been terrible at that , just because , like looking at what , if what , if what , if Right , and so like I think I had told my sister , like you know , there's a chance we moved to Seattle , you know at some point in the future for work stuff .
Speaker 1You know like that could happen , right . And then like the joke was like why can't you just like she was , you know , not upset , but like giving us like a hard time of like , well , we got to take , you know , appreciate the time here because you're going to be in Seattle , and like already thinking about like what could be . And right , right , dad was in the background , like why can't we just like what happened to this family ? We're like we just can't like be in the moment . And I was like he's joking right now , but like that's a pretty good point and so that I mean it rings true , man , I think I think everybody could could deal with that , or like have everyone could benefit from thinking about that , whatever that means , you know just .
Speaker 2Absolutely .
Speaker 1Yeah Well , I definitely appreciate you coming on . I know like it's it's conversations like these that really make me appreciate doing this project because , like I said , you and I don't know each other and I mean I learned a lot about you and I feel like you know we've we've definitely connected in a way that you know who knows if that would ever happen without this , and so I'm appreciative of you coming on and just sharing what you believe and sharing your story . It's been awesome and appreciate it .
Speaker 2Yeah , well , thanks for having me and thanks for doing . This is a cool project and I'm going to keep listening and it's like I love the conversations , I love the dialogue and , yeah , I'm going to be interested to just to listen to this one and like , do I even believe that anymore ?
Speaker 1And it's OK . If you don't , it's fine . Yeah , that's right , that's right , that's all good .
Conversations With UW Students
Speaker 1Well , john , thank you for doing this again . And what's next time in town ? Let's gather beer or something ? Yeah , man , I'm all about it , hardly Huge . Thank you to John for coming on and sharing his story . Make sure to tune in . Next week we're going to be starting a new four part series with the University of Wisconsin Interfaith program . We have four students that come from four different backgrounds and I'm super excited to share our conversations . See you then .
