David Zama: "Atheist"

What happens when a staunch Catholic upbringing leads not to unwavering faith, but to thoughtful questioning and a journey toward atheism? Join us as we sit down with David, a former Catholic turned atheist, who guides us through his transformative spiritual journey. From his earliest memories of attending Mass to the thought-provoking encounters that led to his break with the Church, David's tale is one of exploration, introspection, and ultimately, self-discovery.

Transcript

Exploring Atheism and Catholic Upbringing

Speaker 1 0:02

Welcome to Finding my Religion . My name is Miles Stelps . One quick note before we jump into this next episode . Next week is Thanksgiving and that means there will be no new episodes . But don't worry , we'll see you on November 30th . Alright , we are back . I'm super pumped to talk to this dude . I think we've tried to go back and forth on schedule for a while and just life gets in the way . But David's zan oh my god , I don't know how to pronounce your last name . I should have asked that before we start . Is it Zama ? Zama ? Zama Got it Alright . So we know each other by way of Sister and Law . Jess , who was on a previous episode , jess McFeeters you are really really close with her and her fam , and you guys , I think , at one point had like lived like a half mile away , and so that's how you and I know each other . But thanks for coming on this show . Man , how are you doing ?

Speaker 2 1:12

Yeah , thanks for having me , I'm good .

Speaker 1 1:14

Yeah , of course . So sunny San Diego . I'm super jealous . What's the weather there right now ? Probably perfect .

Speaker 2 1:22

Actually we're in Central Coast California . Right now we're in San Luis Obispo , oh that's right , the whole me and my wife and our kids have been up here for the month of September .

Speaker 1 1:33

That's awesome . So is it like pretty like different weather ? Is it pretty much the same ?

Speaker 2 1:39

It's kind of similar . The nights are definitely colder , so I think it's not as hot as San Diego might be right now . Makes sense .

Speaker 1 1:48

It's been pretty nice , I'm so jealous of your guys' lifestyle . Man . Every time I go to visit you guys and Jess , it's like why don't ? Why doesn't everybody just live here ? This is like perfect all year round . You have the most beautiful sunsets , everybody's just like super chill and laid back , nobody's going anywhere quickly . It's just an awesome place to be .

Speaker 2 2:11

We also live in a six by six box because it's really expensive .

Speaker 1 2:17

Yeah , I can confirm that that's probably part of the reason .

Speaker 2 2:20

Yeah , that's fair .

Speaker 1 2:21

You guys were nice enough to let me and my wife stay there over Christmas because you guys were out , so we got to experience your nice little box . It was awesome . It was great man . Yeah , but I would move there in a heartbeat . But , like you said , the cost is the big thing , yeah , especially with our growing family . Oh right , and congratulations , by the way , that's amazing . That's amazing . So you have two kiddos running around now . I'm sure that keeps you pretty busy . Yeah , yeah , well , cool man . Well , let's get into and talk about religion . So I don't know anything about your background , growing up , all that stuff , so I'm excited to get into that . But , like today , david , what would you say your faith or religion is ?

Speaker 2 3:08

I would say atheist .

Speaker 1 3:11

Cool , yeah , yeah . So talk to me about that . Like , how , like , what's an atheist mean for you ? Because we have my wife on the show and she I think you're the second person who is like said yeah , I'm definitely , this is what I am atheist . So how like , what does that mean for you ?

Speaker 2 3:29

It means there is no God or God's . Yeah , that's pretty much it . I don't believe in a higher power . I don't necessarily think I have control over everything , so there's some of that in there , but like I don't believe in a higher power as far as some kind of deity Sure .

Speaker 1 3:52

So how did you grow up ? I mean , were you guys , did you come from a religious household , like , was there a point where you did believe in something ?

Speaker 2 4:01

So I was raised Catholic . My dad's side of the family , they were all Catholic , all raised Catholic , and then my mom converted when my parents got married . So me and I've an older sister and younger sister and we were raised Catholic . So church every Sunday CCD or catechism some people might call it . Yeah , that's how we were raised , that's what we believed and it just never .

Speaker 2 4:31

I guess really sat well with me and as a kid you know you're gonna be born in church and I think that's where it stemmed from originally . And then you get older and you start thinking about it more critically and I just started asking more questions about it , I guess . Yeah , I didn't understand . The worship part of it Just didn't sit right with me .

Speaker 1 4:55

So as a kid then you were just kind of going through the motions like there was no , like oh , this is fun . That's how I was . I was like this is a we're . I will slave with the boredom phase like where it's just what are we doing here ?

Speaker 2 5:13

Yeah , definitely that . I think there's something about the consistency of the ceremony of it . All that kind of stuff , the ritual that is , you know , kind of fun for a kid , I guess . But mostly I was just started checking out , yeah , yeah , just wasn't my thing . So what was so the stereotypical ?

Speaker 1 5:35

Catholic family , I think for a lot of folks is that you go to church and that's where it's talked about like was there any like discussions in the family of like , hey , this is what we believe , this is why we believe it , or was it mostly just happening when you guys went to Mass ?

Speaker 2 5:51

I honestly don't really remember . It was mostly a church . Again , I went to CCD , so that was like an extra little class . I don't know if it was one or two hours on Mondays , maybe , I can't remember . After school you go into that and then , and then that continued on through the 10th , 11th grade maybe , but I don't remember having a lot of a religion conversations with my kid that I can recall .

Speaker 1 6:22

Yeah , so we do Catechism CCD . How old are you when you do that ? Is that high school or is that junior high ?

Speaker 2 6:32

CCD is from small child till confirmation , so it was a metro school through . Then when you get confirmed , I don't remember , I guess it's like 11th , 12th grade , I don't even know , I don't remember . I didn't make it that far .

Speaker 1 6:48

Yeah , so what happened ? Why did you make it that far ?

Speaker 2 6:52

I got a driver's license when I was 16 , as people do . My parents started letting me drive myself to CCD . There was a month where I'm not driving to CCD at all . I was going to a friend's house and smoking pot or whatever , yeah . Then my parents got a call . They were like , hey , your kid hasn't been here in a very long time . Then I remember coming home from CCD one night CCD . They were like we know you're not going . I was like , oh , you do . Okay . They were like where are you at ?

Speaker 2 7:25

I told them I'd put it over to someone's house or whatever . They were like do you not want to do this ? I was like , no , Then that was kind of it . There was no drama behind it at all .

Speaker 1 7:35

Oh , wow .

Speaker 2 7:36

The huge argument . They were just like okay , then it was done . Yeah , I feel like that conversation ?

Speaker 1 7:42

Why didn't ?

Speaker 2 7:42

we figure this out years ago .

Speaker 1 7:43

Yeah , right , I feel like that conversation could have gone way different if your parents had been different people .

Speaker 2 7:49

Yeah , I've heard of people going through a similar thing and then it not being as easy . When they get to the conversation , it becomes a huge point of conflict in between them and their parents .

Speaker 1 8:08

When you stopped going to CCD were you still going to church with your family , or that was pretty much the end of the religious experience .

Speaker 2 8:15

No , I probably still went every now and then , but I think it just got less and less as the years went on and then I don't remember the last time we did it , but it became a thing . The word eventually was just Easter and Christmas Eve , that kind of a thing . We would do midnight Mass with my parents at their Catholic church . It was a thing that me and my sisters would go to . I just make jokes about why is this a midnight ? All the expected stuff from a bunch of people that aren't really into religion and are still going to church . Sure , yeah , a lot of inappropriate laughter during Mass , that kind of stuff . It just became a way for us to stick around a little bit for an hour , but I don't know when that stopped . That could have been over a decade ago , I guess . Yeah , but I've not been to church in a very long time .

Speaker 1 9:12

Did your . So you have an older and a littler sister . Did they have the same experiences like going through CCD ? Were you guys all kind of converging at the same time ? Why the hell are we doing this ? Or was it staggered it ?

Speaker 2 9:26

staggered . My sister and I are all four years apart , about four years apart . My older sister actually went through the entire thing , got confirmed . Then I broke the seal for my younger sister . I didn't have to do it , so she didn't have to do it .

Speaker 1 9:42

Yeah , that makes sense . Yeah , I mean there has to be , or maybe there wasn't . I was just going to ask if there was some sort of void that , when you decide that this isn't for me , for my churchgoing perspective , were you thinking about what you believed at that point ? Or was this just more like I got to get out of church first , be a high school student , college kid , whatever it is ? Were you thinking about faith and spirituality or just the boringness aspect of it ?

Speaker 2 10:18

I mean , yeah , I thought about it , Of course . I mean I was raised in it , I was living in Louisiana at the time . I went to high school in Louisiana , Bored in Texas , moved to Louisiana in eighth or ninth grade . It bothered me . I felt like there was a lot of judgment involved , a lot of guilt involved , the stuff that I've probably taken with me into adulthood . I'm sure other people can feel the same way .

Speaker 2 10:53

Yeah , I don't know . It was just something I wanted to get away from . I didn't like it . I didn't like the way it was pushed on people . I definitely started questioning why things were the way they

Exploring Atheism and Religious Experiences

Speaker 2 11:08

were . As far as worship , I still had the idea of worship . Why are we worshiping ? Who is this person that needs to be worshiped so badly ? Who is this being that needs to be worshiped so badly ? It seems like something insecure a person might want . I don't know . You're all powerful . Why would you need that ?

Speaker 2 11:29

I also felt judgment . I could see other people being judgmental in places that just had nothing to do with them , none of their business , I don't know . It just kind of made it gross me out a little bit . I didn't see the need to be a part of it anymore .

Speaker 1 11:50

I was a nice little kid and I didn't want to go sit in church . Yeah , that's the easy one . Try to have fun . When did you start to think about the concept of atheism ? Did you try out any other sorts of faiths or religions ? This is not for me , so I'm out .

Speaker 2 12:17

It was pretty instant . I don't want to do this . I don't think saying atheists came easy . It was in a long life , but it was at the time a lifetime of Catholic indoctrination and the fear of what happens when you go against it . I didn't know what hell was , but if it was a thing , it sounded terrible . I think it was hard to get into it . I think I probably said agnostic for a while as a younger person . Yeah , yeah , it did not come easy . Ignostic , as far as I can tell , is just I believe in God . I just don't know what , in what capacity , or I don't know . I could be wrong about that .

Speaker 1 13:15

No , that's a good point , because I think I've struggled with it as well of like , what does agnostic mean ? Is that really for me ? And I think I haven't been able to . I talked about this recently . I was on the first episode this season . So again , I won't listen to that one . Go back and listen to that when I talk about how there's got to be just as much faith to say you're an atheist . So I guess that leads me to . My next question is like how did you get to the point where you're so sure there's nothing ?

Speaker 2 13:50

I probably didn't think about it at all . I lived my life and got through it without religion being a part of it . I don't know when I decided I was 100% atheist . It feels like it's been forever to me . Now I'm 40 years old . I would assume it happened either early 20s or late teens , I don't know . But yeah , it just wasn't a big enough part of my life for it to bog me down anymore , so I didn't really have to think about it . I did just remember another high school situation that I really and this wasn't even Catholic I went to a youth group thing , A friend of mine .

Speaker 2 14:36

There was a girl involved , either like him or me or something , and she wanted us to go to this youth group thing in like sophomore year of high school or something . And we go and it was like teenage televangelism . It was like a Christian rock band playing loud music , lots of kids up dancing , and then I guess it was like a young pastor or something hand on the forehead of some kid . They were sobbing and crying and convulsing and that was my first experience with seeing people be saved , which was incredibly uncomfortable . I did not know how to deal with that at all . I was like all right . Well , this is clearly not my crowd at all .

Speaker 1 15:24

Well , it's so different , right ? Because Catholicism historically is very traditional in the way that service happens and to go to something like that I mean , I've been to stuff like that too and I could only imagine from a Catholic kid being like whoa , what this is , a different level of belief or Christianity , all that good stuff . So what was your reaction to that ? You had to be freaked out a little bit .

Speaker 2 15:53

I just remember a lot of looking over at my friend and we were both kind of like our minds were blown . I think he was someone who didn't go to church at all . Then I was obviously very checked out of what little church I was going to begin with and we were just both kind of like I don't know how to get out of here right now . I don't know how to leave fast . I don't know if we were even 16 yet , so I'm not sure if we had a car or anything . So we just stuck it out . But it was just bizarre . It was so weird to me and it definitely sticks with me .

Speaker 1 16:26

Do you remember having a conversation with that friend afterward , the one that invited you Like ? It was like why did you do that ? What were you getting to me ? I saw it right here .

Speaker 2 16:36

Yeah , we just kind of probably made jokes about it forever . I forgot about it . The person that invited us I don't remember ever having a conversation with her . I think it was just like you're in deep , I don't know what else to say yeah , yeah , yeah .

Speaker 1 16:55

that's tough when you it's you know they're different beliefs or just like just that they're beliefs and it's hard to get somebody to like like let's take a step back here . And why me ? Why'd you pick me ?

Speaker 2 17:08

What is this on ?

Speaker 1 17:09

me , yeah . So what about in , like college , in your early years , because we said you don't know , really know when that transition took place of like yeah , I'm atheist , I don't really need it ? Were you thinking about these things Like after school ? Or is it just like ? Because it sounds like to me that you're just always been a guy ? That's like I was Catholic . That wasn't for me , and when I found out that it wasn't for me , like that was it ? Like I just kind of lived my life and that like that was it , like there was no searching for anything else , right , is that fair ?

Speaker 2 17:49

It's pretty fair . I mean , I think it was so singular in my life as the religion that I did not do a lot of research . I was just actually talking to my wife about it . She asked me the same question like an hour ago .

Speaker 2 18:04

No , I didn't . I wasn't really interested in figuring out some other God . I kind of came to the conclusion at some point , whether it's based on anything accurate or not , that it was going to be the same story with anything else and it's just a slightly changed version of the same story over and over again and again . I mean that could be way off base , so I don't know for sure . Like it . Just it became a thing that I just didn't like . I wasn't looking for answers from some I don't know magic being in the sky or whatever .

Speaker 1 18:45

Yeah , I think it's fair

Religion and Morality

Speaker 1 18:48

. I think , like a lot of people probably will ask the question of so if you're a Catholic , you've grown up in this one particular religion , who has taught you quote unquote what's right and wrong , how do you know after that what's right and wrong ? Like because you've taken , like you've grown up with these morals over here and you said , no , that's not for me , but that we don't have anything that's like a basis for it . Not that you need it , but like did you ever think about that ? Like , how ? Like , what's your ? How do you determine what your moral compass is ? And things like that .

Speaker 1 19:30

I mean , I think , as you get older , you learn what right and wrong is .

Speaker 2 19:33

You learn what not to do to people , what , what ? The goal , I guess , at the end of the day , is for everybody to be okay , and that's not the case . But like you don't want to be a part of the opposite , you don't want to , you're not trying to go through life bringing people down . If you are , then and you don't know that that's not good , then I think you got other issues . I don't know . It seemed pretty straight forward to me .

Speaker 1 19:59

Yeah , I mean I wish it was that sort of for everybody Just be , just be good . It seems pretty easy . Don't be a dick .

Speaker 2 20:08

Yeah , don't be a dick Number one , yeah .

Speaker 1 20:11

That's exactly right . What about religion do you feel is the biggest ? How can I phrase this ? Is there anything in religion that gives you an aversion to it , christianity or otherwise ? I think a lot of people go searching for something to replace the thing , and I think you're unique in the fact that you didn't do that . It's not right or wrong , it's just . It's just an interesting thing , right , so do you ? Is there an aversion ? Or , if so , what is it ? If not , what is it ? There was an aversion .

Speaker 2 20:49

Now I've kind of so . I guess the aversion was just the place I feel like where I was in high school and the people that were doing it , the teaching . I felt like there was a lot more judgment involved rather than just teaching people how to live a good life or whatever , which I think is what it really should be about . I feel like it's it ends up being something . It just felt like it ended up being something different , like the thing that causes problems in the world , one of the things that causes problems , or whatever , but it just seemed like a way more judgmental place where I just it was . I just didn't have any relation to it . I just couldn't get behind it at all and like it seemed like people would be policing the way you were acting as a teenager . That's like kids got enough pressure . They don't need you know the fear of hell on their shoulders too . Like that's . That's just a weird thing to do , that's a weird way to go about it , and I guess I came to the conclusion that none of it was real . The people that were in charge of it were trying to keep a certain group of people in line , and some throughout history . I feel like it's just been the thing and it just wasn't for me .

Speaker 2 22:11

I mean , I have come to terms with the fact that it's not all evil , it isn't that is . That's not the thing . That's not not the case . There are , there are good people who are very religious as just as much as there are bad people who are . You know , it's it's all the way around . It's .

Speaker 2 22:34

People get too bogged down . I think people get too bogged down into religion as an identity and , some people , atheism as an identity , and it becomes a thing where , if you're against it , you're attacking someone as a person and it can get very heated and horrible . And it's the same in politics now too Republican , democrat , whatever . It's all become too personal when it's a belief or an opinion . That's how it should be looked at . So my wife she believes in God . She's not a religious person , but she believes in God . So I don't know that . And Mike Sun he's two years old . He hangs out with a family member who is very Christian . She watches him one day a week . She's the sweetest woman in the world . We love her dearly and she takes him to church on Sundays .

Speaker 2 23:32

They go to Sunday school and that is something that was weird for me . It's still weird for me . It's kind of an uncomfortable thing , but I know he's in a safe place with a person who I trust very much and also he's two , he's not getting indoctrinated at the age of two .

Speaker 1 23:55

Sure yeah , it's hard to process that stuff at that age .

Speaker 2 23:59

Yeah , and at the end of the day , my wife and I talked about this a lot . Obviously she said it best . She said it's her job to teach them how to think , not what to think . I mean , if that's something that intrigues him later on in life , he'll be it . Oh , and his daycare . He came home from daycare one day and he was thinking something with the . Hosanna came up in one of the lyrics , yeah , and I was like what is happening right now ? I'm not going to speak that much , so for that to be one of his words , this is before he was two , I think . Wow , bilingual , it's coming to terms with the fact that it isn't all that .

Speaker 2 24:49

And I don't want to believe anybody that I meet in life because they might believe in God or whatever , I think that I immediately have a poor opinion of them because I don't know it's up against . Again . I have the belief , opinion and your understanding that other people also have a belief in opinions , that it should be fine .

Speaker 1 25:11

Yeah , it sounds like you had to do some work to get to that point , though . Is that fair ? Like to ? Like to say like not , not everyone's had my experience in a shitty , but .

Speaker 2 25:23

I spent a lot of time not thinking about it up until I had kids .

Speaker 1 25:26

Oh , really , also , you got to think about shit that you never really wanted to think about at all .

Speaker 2 25:33

Yeah , I went through my 20s and most of my 30s not caring . I was fine with my opinion and , you know , in the certain setting I might let someone have it if they , you know , got tubes righteous with their whatever . And now , you know , like I said , 40 , I have two children . I have to figure out how to make sure they're not horrible people in the future . So I got to do everything possible to show them how to not be a horrible person .

Speaker 1 25:59

Yeah , the kids kids force you things on the way . Yeah , kids forced your hand in trying to dissect some of this stuff that maybe I didn't . Really there's no need for you to have to worry about it . And it sounds like life was going pretty well and now all of a sudden like , oh shit , now we got to figure something out of necessity .

Speaker 2 26:19

Yeah , yeah , it became not urgent , but kind of I don't know a thing that I needed to deal with in my own hand . And like I met this family member that I watched . I met her years ago , before we were married , and she's always been a lovely person , and so I don't know , I probably made the turn then . But like to really really think about it , I think having kids had a big major part in that . Yeah .

Speaker 1 26:49

Has that been uncomfortable for you , or has it been kind of like an interesting journey for you A little ?

Speaker 2 26:54

bit . I mean the interesting journey part of it is my wife and I talking about it and having like real conversations about what it means and what our place is and what we're okay with , and so that's been the interesting journey part of it . And then the discomfort is , you know , you could come home sing in Jesus songs and you're like , where did that come from ? Yeah , who taught you that song ?

Speaker 2 27:25

But like I don't know , yeah , I'm not sending him to Catholic school at any point . We're not going to be churchgoers . I don't know . This is probably the extent of what he's going to get from it . And oh , and his daycare too . That's , I say his daycare . Yeah , I mean he's going to learn about it at some point anyways . So I don't know , it's not that big of a deal that he starts hearing about it now . Yeah , that's right . I don't think anybody's secretly taken him to get baptized . So we're fine , we're fine .

Speaker 1 28:08

So you mentioned your wife is , or believes in God . Is that like a like ? How do you guys talk about that ? If you're atheist and you believe there isn't a God , and she does like , are there tough conversations to be had or is it just more of a learning ?

Speaker 2 28:28

No , it's . I don't want to speak too much for her , but as far as I can tell and we've had conversations about it , just trying to understand she's not like I said . She believes in God . She's not religious . It's an idea that there must be something out there . The universe is too vast for their non-Api and I'm trying to figure out a way to say that that doesn't diminish it anyway , or sound stupid , because I will make it sound stupid . She she's . There are things out of our control with these people . She knows that . She thinks there is something out there , someone that she can talk to . That she means pray . She can pray , but she does not . She's not believing God , as a Christian would call it God , like she's not putting a label of some all knowing deity . It's not , that's not it . It's a peaceful , helpful thing for her more than anything . Yeah , yeah , I don't know . It seems like the most healthy way I've ever heard someone talk about a believing God .

Speaker 1 30:03

Yeah . So it's like like it sounds like how I believe in aliens . Well , now we know they're real and we were all right , absolutely Of . Like it's so vast , so many things happen , like how could there not be a God ? I don't know if I subscribed to that , but I think that's a fascinating way to look at it .

Speaker 2 30:22

For sure , I think so , neither , but that she said that and I was like it's not a bad point at all . It's a good point . Yeah right , there's an infinite amount of stuff everywhere . I guess there could

Exploring Free Will and Religious Beliefs

Speaker 2 30:35

be .

Speaker 1 30:35

I don't know , one question I always have for people that don't believe in a God is this question of free will , like do you believe free will is a thing , or is everything predetermined ? That's such a softball question for you , right ?

Speaker 2 30:57

I like to believe in free will , but I also , I don't know . Science fiction says we're all in an infinite time loop or whatever . Right , but I don't think that has to do with God , I don't know . It seems like free will . Yes , I like to believe that free will is a thing .

Speaker 1 31:18

Yeah , I think a lot of Christians just believe that there is free will and that's why it's a beautiful thing to be able to believe in it . I don't know what if it's the same thing for people that are involved with Islam or Judaism , but that part always just fascinates me of like , if there's a God and you pray to a God and they can maybe change something , then free will , that money is the water a little bit . Yeah , it constitutes things for sure yeah .

Speaker 1 31:54

I don't know . I just always think it's interesting when people don't believe in a God . It's like well then , is it all just chaos ? Like you said ? Are we living in a time loop ? Is the matrix real ? What are we doing here ?

Speaker 2 32:06

And any of those things could be true . I have no idea , I don't know . Yeah , yeah , it is bizarre . It does mighty the waters quite a bit . I think what I like about it is that it's finite .

Speaker 2 32:20

There's a beginning and an end , and I don't know if I've dealt with the idea of the end . That probably still will give me anxiety for another couple of decades , but I don't know . I think it makes it . I'm trying not sound like a cliche or a line from a movie or something , but it makes things more important . Yeah , the life you're living now , for sure , and the idea that we're doing everything we do in life and we're acting a certain way so we can go to heaven or whatever . It just seems like a cheap and everything . Yeah , I don't know .

Speaker 2 33:07

Why don't you be a good human being so that you can just live a good life and be happy with other ?

Speaker 1 33:14

things . Do it now . Yeah , so it sounds like you have a hint of the fear that I had growing up of this like the end of what happens , heaven and hell . Do you still struggle with that of afterlife or not being an afterlife ? What happens when we're done here , sort of thing ?

Speaker 2 33:37

At the moment . No , I'm , then , no hurry to see the end come , but the idea that I've just done . I don't know what happened before November 30th 1982 . I have no feelings about the day before , the years before , decades before or whatever , and I will feel nothing or be nothing after the day .

Speaker 1 34:03

I die .

Speaker 2 34:04

So , I definitely am not afraid of going to hell . I don't know . I just I definitely am not ready for the end . Also , I'm not that accepting of it , or I'm like , if I die tomorrow , who cares ? Right , and those people that do feel that way are insane . There's so much to be done . Were you ever afraid , afraid of hell ? Yeah , absolutely yeah . Growing up , for sure , when I was a kid and that's part of the judgment I'm sorry about I remember losing my virginity in high school and there were kids in Catholic school I guess someone had heard about it or whatever and ever being told oh , you're definitely going to hell . Oh , wow , okay , but even before that , like elementary school , you know about hell when you're before the age of 10 , like that's just insane . Like that's the motivator to be good is to not go to hell . Like that's so twisted in it To tell the children that that's just bizarre , that's terrible . I don't agree with that .

Speaker 1 35:19

Yeah , I can't say this Great . So how like ? What is the plan ? Then you mentioned that your wife had said we need to teach them how to think versus what to think . So what is that like in practice ? Look like , I mean , obviously you're letting them kind of experience the world and , you know , letting people show them their different faiths and beliefs , which I think is awesome . But outside of that , like what's like , how do you , how do you do that as parents ? It's gotta be tough .

Speaker 2 35:49

I have no idea . Mine are two and two years and two months is the other one .

Speaker 1 35:56

So I don't know .

Speaker 2 35:57

I think it's .

Speaker 1 35:57

I think it's taking your hands off the wheel every now and then , and letting them explore certain things , letting them be , make sure they're curious , I don't know . Teach them to be curious and ask questions , seek out information .

Speaker 2 36:19

Religious or otherwise ? I don't know anything . I thought that's . That's as far as I've gotten so far .

Speaker 1 36:26

Yeah .

Speaker 2 36:26

That's fair , not stifle their curiosity .

Speaker 1 36:29

Yeah , I just it's . It's interesting , like I and I always ask to parents because I , you know , we want to have kids someday and I don't know , like the way that I , like the way you and I grew up , is going to be completely different from the way that you and I probably raise our kids from a faith or religious standpoint , 100% , yeah , and I don't know what that looks like for me in particular . So I'm always fascinated in like all right , your kids get to a certain age to have these types of conversations . Now , what Like ? What is that ? Like I can't answer some of these questions for myself from a faith perspective and I think it's okay to say that , like I don't know , but I think it's important to say that , yeah , that's probably right , that's probably really important .

Speaker 2 37:18

I mean factor in it Letting .

Speaker 2 37:23

I mean that's that's an important part of making sure they're questioning people and not just accepting every bit of information they get from everybody , whether they're a teacher or a minister or whatever . Like you know , always ask questions and come up with your own opinions or solutions or whatever based on what you find out . I mean , I don't know . I mean , have make sure they have good judgment is important too . I don't really know how to do that other than setting examples for them . So there's like a lot of but before they were around , a lot of parts of my life will not tell me about because my poor judgment , or maybe I will because , hey , don't do this Lesson to be learned , yeah Right , when I was 28 , I was a complete jackass , do ?

Speaker 1 38:19

not do any of this .

Speaker 2 38:22

Here's the playbook for what not to do Social media you probably find some dub shed I did online . Yeah , that's scary Right . Yeah , I don't know . I don't know what the answer is . I think it's especially with raising kids , it's all just learn as you go , kind of thing .

Speaker 1 38:44

Yeah , it's like who's going to fuck up their kid the least and they're going to have success , do you ? So there's been a couple of people that have come on and talked about their experiences in Catholicism , and one being the sense of like I wasn't able to ask questions , like the sense of trying to just have faith . Like having faith is one thing , but then questioning the things that go into it is another thing . I think that sometimes , from what I've heard , people that go through the Catholic faith at a young age , they're kind of dissuaded from asking questions or even some of the tough questions . Was that your experience or were you guys able to kind of dig in , or did you have the interest even to do that ?

Speaker 2 39:34

I think that the answers to the questions were often bullshit . It was skirting a real answer . It was like saying things like it's God's plan without giving any sort of real information . And I'm sure that wasn't every 100% of the cases , but I do remember that one happening pretty well Like , just like , pipe down what God wants . He's got a plan , that kind of thing . And I'm sure there were more intelligent people here and there that did delve deeper into it or whatever , but I don't know . It seemed in certain points in my life there were some people who were less than you should not have been the ones being at those questions .

Speaker 1 40:27

Yeah , we got a couple more questions for you , if you've got time . I know that you're busy . I do Dad of two . Right now I'm on vacation . Oh , let's go . Yeah , I see you got the cocktail already . I love that , Love this . We're making it two o'clock in the afternoon . Hey , that's God bless you , man . That's awesome . I wish I could right now . So do you ever see yourself not being an atheist ? I know that's kind of a weird question to ask , but I feel like I kind of touched on a little bit at the beginning when we were talking of like atheism . In my opinion , there's just so much of belief that you have to have that there's nothing there . Versus saying like and there could be right . Like atheism is like a flat out denial of anything being out there . Do you ever see yourself having your mind change ? Are you open to having your mind change ? Are you kind of pretty much you've thought about it , you're good to go , it's just you know there is nothing out there .

Speaker 2 41:27

In the biblical sense of a God being out there , having created the world and all the people on it and his own name and that kind of stuff . Now I don't think there's any chance .

Beliefs About God and Religion

Speaker 1 41:39

And part of that .

Speaker 2 41:39

I think , is because of the way that I kind of came to the conclusion that it wasn't a thing that I was pressuring myself to come to the answer Just over the years , probably not thinking about it enough . It just it happened that way . I'm very comfortable with it now . There's not a bit of conflict .

Speaker 1 41:58

What about ? So that's on the like , the crypt , like from a Christian sense , that God , right . What about outside of that Like , what about the way that your wife believes it ? And I'm not trying to pressure you into believing something , by the way , I'm just like very , very curious . I'm just asking the same question and she's like no , I'm good Like this , I've got my own set of beliefs that are just not . They just don't mesh with what religion has or what I know about religion , and maybe it's just a sense of like you got to educate yourself a little bit from her perspective . I don't know , but I'm always fascinated by that .

Speaker 2 42:34

No , I don't think there's anything that could make me or that would change my mind , short of God himself coming down and saying , hey , maybe Bro come on . It's like , oh , but that's not coming . I don't know . Yeah , that , that just isn't it . My wife , her , the way she looks at it , I do kind of admire , because it is completely separate from , I think , what I think of that being brought up in Catholicism as God .

Speaker 2 43:10

And I think part of that is because she wasn't raised in the church at all . She wasn't . I think her family might have dabbled here and there and like maybe a couple times went to mass or something , but they were not religious people and they didn't instill that in them . They created very ethical , moral , wonderful people . Both their children are wonderful . They're adult children now . But she has this complete separation from the I guess the dogma of it all , the ritual , the being in the organization of that , like none of that has anything to do with it . It's just like her thing , it's like there's just you know , I have this connection .

Speaker 1 44:03

And it's very personal in me .

Speaker 2 44:05

And it's my thing , then I don't need anybody else to buy it , and I'm not trying to sell it to anybody . That's just where I am and it's like the most healthy version of the belief in God that I've ever heard .

Speaker 2 44:21

And it's a way that I even talking to her about it a little while ago . I was still just like so you don't have like a solid definition . She was like you're missing the point . If you're looking for a solid definition , then that's not . That's not what we're talking about . That's not what I'm talking about at all . Yeah , but look at what it says to the dictionary about God and she's like no man , I don't get it . Yeah , and I do get it . It's just like my brain automatically wants to go back into that , put it in a box , set it in a category , because I was raised Catholic , so I know I am that .

Speaker 2 44:56

And then some people are this other one and say whatever it's , I don't know ?

Speaker 1 45:02

No , I relate to that a lot . It is interesting because for people like you and me that were like really young age and in this , whatever , and there's not other options presented to you no , no , I'm not saying that like you don't . It's sometimes I've , I've it'd be awesome , I think , for kids if it was like a healthcare plan they had to pick . You know , like when you start a new job , it's like you want Blue Cross for shield or like Aetna , and like you get to pick it and like maybe that should be that way for kids . Like hey , this is what all this believes , this is what all this believes . You pick it and it's like , okay , you can go to that class and like learn about it and see if it's for you , like wouldn't that be ?

Speaker 2 45:44

part of it is that that would be the thickest book of categories in the world . I think there's so much out there and it's like and that's also part of my problem with Christianity , I guess is because it's just like one thing that's splintered off to this other thing they didn't like this one bit here and then that splintered off to another , because all that part here , or like it , just seems like it's so made up as we go . It's like how , how is this ?

Speaker 1 46:10

how can we look ?

Speaker 2 46:10

at this completely seriously and think that that is what if there was a God , if that's what he had in mind , like pick and choose the rules you like and then start your own club ? Yeah , I don't . I don't understand that at all .

Speaker 1 46:24

No , I , I can't say I disagree . It's . It's tough to wrap my head around . I know there's people that are listening in a car or whatever , just shaking their head like you idiot , like that's yeah , yeah , I'm sure , and I apologize to everybody .

Speaker 1 46:41

Yeah , I have to . I apologize after every episode . I feel like I have to . I am . I am so ignorant to this stuff , which is why I like to talk with people . Yeah , I think I think it's just interesting to talk to somebody that like I feel like I was put in a box too of like this is it Like . And every time you have conversations after that you immediately revert back to Sunday school or going through like your CCD classes of like well , that's , that's like you . It's like you're you're having different conversations on a different plane almost and you and they're just flying by because where we started , we can't get up to here to then meet whatever that person's talking about . And for those that are listening , that are watching , I just put my arms up in the air . No big deal . I'm like super insightful , but I it's like that's fascinating man , and that all comes from like that . I don't want to say programming , but to a certain extent , that's what it is .

Speaker 2 47:39

That's exactly what I was going to say , but sort of indoctrination as a child , yeah , but it's a certain mindset .

Speaker 1 47:47

So you're you're a happy dude right now , like you're . You're like we're atheists . We're cool , there's no God . But , like you know , it sounds like these conversations with Maggie are going great in terms of like what she believes and how that messes with , like your lifestyle . I think that's a that's a beautiful thing , man .

Speaker 2 48:04

Yeah , thank you yeah . It's going well , and I think the raising the kids part is the only spot where I thought it might be a thing that I might fall back onto just for , I don't know , some answers . But it's not and I feel pretty good about not falling back on that .

Speaker 1 48:21

That's interesting . That's an interesting point .

Speaker 2 48:23

So you thought there might be a point like you have a kid , like maybe like it might just be an easy way to you know , teach them how to not be a monster , but I don't , I don't , I don't think it's necessary , I don't love it .

Speaker 1 48:36

Well , I really appreciate the time of doing it . I said I know that well , I know you're on vacation , but you still got to be a dad when you're on vacation too . So I appreciate the time . Yeah , of course

Wishing Well and Anticipation of Meeting

Speaker 1 48:45

. All the best to you and the fan man . Hopefully we get to see you guys . I think we're going to be out soon . Yeah , in January or something like that .

Speaker 2 48:52

But guys are around , we'll see , we will see . Yeah , we'll see you in a minute .

Speaker 1 48:56

Awesome man . Thanks again for doing this . All the best to you guys and the family , and I'm sure we'll catch up soon . All right , see ya .