Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
David Zama: "Atheist"
What happens when a staunch Catholic upbringing leads not to unwavering faith, but to thoughtful questioning and a journey toward atheism? Join us as we sit down with David, a former Catholic turned atheist, who guides us through his transformative spiritual journey. From his earliest memories of attending Mass to the thought-provoking encounters that led to his break with the Church, David's tale is one of exploration, introspection, and ultimately, self-discovery.
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Welcome to Finding my Religion. My name is Miles Stelps. One quick note before we jump into this next episode. Next week is Thanksgiving and that means there will be no new episodes. But don't worry, we'll see you on November 30th. Alright, we are back. I'm super pumped to talk to this dude. I think we've tried to go back and forth on schedule for a while and just life gets in the way. But David's zan oh my god, I don't know how to pronounce your last name. I should have asked that before we start. Is it Zama? Zama? Zama Got it Alright. So we know each other by way of Sister and Law. Jess, who was on a previous episode, jess McFeeters you are really really close with her and her fam, and you guys, I think, at one point had like lived like a half mile away, and so that's how you and I know each other. But thanks for coming on this show. Man, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me, I'm good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course. So sunny San Diego. I'm super jealous. What's the weather there right now? Probably perfect.
Speaker 2:Actually we're in Central Coast California. Right now we're in San Luis Obispo, oh that's right, the whole me and my wife and our kids have been up here for the month of September.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So is it like pretty like different weather? Is it pretty much the same?
Speaker 2:It's kind of similar. The nights are definitely colder, so I think it's not as hot as San Diego might be right now. Makes sense.
Speaker 1:It's been pretty nice, I'm so jealous of your guys' lifestyle. Man. Every time I go to visit you guys and Jess, it's like why don't? Why doesn't everybody just live here? This is like perfect all year round. You have the most beautiful sunsets, everybody's just like super chill and laid back, nobody's going anywhere quickly. It's just an awesome place to be.
Speaker 2:We also live in a six by six box because it's really expensive.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can confirm that that's probably part of the reason.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 1:You guys were nice enough to let me and my wife stay there over Christmas because you guys were out, so we got to experience your nice little box. It was awesome. It was great man. Yeah, but I would move there in a heartbeat. But, like you said, the cost is the big thing, yeah, especially with our growing family. Oh right, and congratulations, by the way, that's amazing. That's amazing. So you have two kiddos running around now. I'm sure that keeps you pretty busy. Yeah, yeah, well, cool man. Well, let's get into and talk about religion. So I don't know anything about your background, growing up, all that stuff, so I'm excited to get into that. But, like today, david, what would you say your faith or religion is?
Speaker 2:I would say atheist.
Speaker 1:Cool, yeah, yeah. So talk to me about that. Like, how, like, what's an atheist mean for you? Because we have my wife on the show and she I think you're the second person who is like said yeah, I'm definitely, this is what I am atheist. So how like, what does that mean for you?
Speaker 2:It means there is no God or God's. Yeah, that's pretty much it. I don't believe in a higher power. I don't necessarily think I have control over everything, so there's some of that in there, but like I don't believe in a higher power as far as some kind of deity Sure.
Speaker 1:So how did you grow up? I mean, were you guys, did you come from a religious household, like, was there a point where you did believe in something?
Speaker 2:So I was raised Catholic. My dad's side of the family, they were all Catholic, all raised Catholic, and then my mom converted when my parents got married. So me and I've an older sister and younger sister and we were raised Catholic. So church every Sunday CCD or catechism some people might call it. Yeah, that's how we were raised, that's what we believed and it just never.
Speaker 2:I guess really sat well with me and as a kid you know you're gonna be born in church and I think that's where it stemmed from originally. And then you get older and you start thinking about it more critically and I just started asking more questions about it, I guess. Yeah, I didn't understand. The worship part of it Just didn't sit right with me.
Speaker 1:So as a kid then you were just kind of going through the motions like there was no, like oh, this is fun. That's how I was. I was like this is a we're. I will slave with the boredom phase like where it's just what are we doing here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely that. I think there's something about the consistency of the ceremony of it. All that kind of stuff, the ritual that is, you know, kind of fun for a kid, I guess. But mostly I was just started checking out, yeah, yeah, just wasn't my thing. So what was so the stereotypical?
Speaker 1:Catholic family, I think for a lot of folks is that you go to church and that's where it's talked about like was there any like discussions in the family of like, hey, this is what we believe, this is why we believe it, or was it mostly just happening when you guys went to Mass?
Speaker 2:I honestly don't really remember. It was mostly a church. Again, I went to CCD, so that was like an extra little class. I don't know if it was one or two hours on Mondays, maybe, I can't remember. After school you go into that and then, and then that continued on through the 10th, 11th grade maybe, but I don't remember having a lot of a religion conversations with my kid that I can recall.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we do Catechism CCD. How old are you when you do that? Is that high school or is that junior high?
Speaker 2:CCD is from small child till confirmation, so it was a metro school through. Then when you get confirmed, I don't remember, I guess it's like 11th, 12th grade, I don't even know, I don't remember. I didn't make it that far.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so what happened? Why did you make it that far?
Speaker 2:I got a driver's license when I was 16, as people do. My parents started letting me drive myself to CCD. There was a month where I'm not driving to CCD at all. I was going to a friend's house and smoking pot or whatever, yeah. Then my parents got a call. They were like, hey, your kid hasn't been here in a very long time. Then I remember coming home from CCD one night CCD. They were like we know you're not going. I was like, oh, you do. Okay. They were like where are you at?
Speaker 2:I told them I'd put it over to someone's house or whatever. They were like do you not want to do this? I was like, no, Then that was kind of it. There was no drama behind it at all.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:The huge argument. They were just like okay, then it was done. Yeah, I feel like that conversation?
Speaker 1:Why didn't?
Speaker 2:we figure this out years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, right, I feel like that conversation could have gone way different if your parents had been different people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've heard of people going through a similar thing and then it not being as easy. When they get to the conversation, it becomes a huge point of conflict in between them and their parents.
Speaker 1:When you stopped going to CCD were you still going to church with your family, or that was pretty much the end of the religious experience.
Speaker 2:No, I probably still went every now and then, but I think it just got less and less as the years went on and then I don't remember the last time we did it, but it became a thing. The word eventually was just Easter and Christmas Eve, that kind of a thing. We would do midnight Mass with my parents at their Catholic church. It was a thing that me and my sisters would go to. I just make jokes about why is this a midnight? All the expected stuff from a bunch of people that aren't really into religion and are still going to church. Sure, yeah, a lot of inappropriate laughter during Mass, that kind of stuff. It just became a way for us to stick around a little bit for an hour, but I don't know when that stopped. That could have been over a decade ago, I guess. Yeah, but I've not been to church in a very long time.
Speaker 1:Did your. So you have an older and a littler sister. Did they have the same experiences like going through CCD? Were you guys all kind of converging at the same time? Why the hell are we doing this? Or was it staggered it?
Speaker 2:staggered. My sister and I are all four years apart, about four years apart. My older sister actually went through the entire thing, got confirmed. Then I broke the seal for my younger sister. I didn't have to do it, so she didn't have to do it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I mean there has to be, or maybe there wasn't. I was just going to ask if there was some sort of void that, when you decide that this isn't for me, for my churchgoing perspective, were you thinking about what you believed at that point? Or was this just more like I got to get out of church first, be a high school student, college kid, whatever it is? Were you thinking about faith and spirituality or just the boringness aspect of it?
Speaker 2:I mean, yeah, I thought about it, Of course. I mean I was raised in it, I was living in Louisiana at the time. I went to high school in Louisiana, Bored in Texas, moved to Louisiana in eighth or ninth grade. It bothered me. I felt like there was a lot of judgment involved, a lot of guilt involved, the stuff that I've probably taken with me into adulthood. I'm sure other people can feel the same way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't know. It was just something I wanted to get away from. I didn't like it. I didn't like the way it was pushed on people. I definitely started questioning why things were the way they were. As far as worship, I still had the idea of worship. Why are we worshiping? Who is this person that needs to be worshiped so badly? Who is this being that needs to be worshiped so badly? It seems like something insecure a person might want. I don't know. You're all powerful. Why would you need that?
Speaker 2:I also felt judgment. I could see other people being judgmental in places that just had nothing to do with them, none of their business, I don't know. It just kind of made it gross me out a little bit. I didn't see the need to be a part of it anymore.
Speaker 1:I was a nice little kid and I didn't want to go sit in church. Yeah, that's the easy one. Try to have fun. When did you start to think about the concept of atheism? Did you try out any other sorts of faiths or religions? This is not for me, so I'm out.
Speaker 2:It was pretty instant. I don't want to do this. I don't think saying atheists came easy. It was in a long life, but it was at the time a lifetime of Catholic indoctrination and the fear of what happens when you go against it. I didn't know what hell was, but if it was a thing, it sounded terrible. I think it was hard to get into it. I think I probably said agnostic for a while as a younger person. Yeah, yeah, it did not come easy. Ignostic, as far as I can tell, is just I believe in God. I just don't know what, in what capacity, or I don't know. I could be wrong about that.
Speaker 1:No, that's a good point, because I think I've struggled with it as well of like, what does agnostic mean? Is that really for me? And I think I haven't been able to. I talked about this recently. I was on the first episode this season. So again, I won't listen to that one. Go back and listen to that when I talk about how there's got to be just as much faith to say you're an atheist. So I guess that leads me to. My next question is like how did you get to the point where you're so sure there's nothing?
Speaker 2:I probably didn't think about it at all. I lived my life and got through it without religion being a part of it. I don't know when I decided I was 100% atheist. It feels like it's been forever to me. Now I'm 40 years old. I would assume it happened either early 20s or late teens, I don't know. But yeah, it just wasn't a big enough part of my life for it to bog me down anymore, so I didn't really have to think about it. I did just remember another high school situation that I really and this wasn't even Catholic I went to a youth group thing, A friend of mine.
Speaker 2:There was a girl involved, either like him or me or something, and she wanted us to go to this youth group thing in like sophomore year of high school or something. And we go and it was like teenage televangelism. It was like a Christian rock band playing loud music, lots of kids up dancing, and then I guess it was like a young pastor or something hand on the forehead of some kid. They were sobbing and crying and convulsing and that was my first experience with seeing people be saved, which was incredibly uncomfortable. I did not know how to deal with that at all. I was like all right. Well, this is clearly not my crowd at all.
Speaker 1:Well, it's so different, right? Because Catholicism historically is very traditional in the way that service happens and to go to something like that I mean, I've been to stuff like that too and I could only imagine from a Catholic kid being like whoa, what this is, a different level of belief or Christianity, all that good stuff. So what was your reaction to that? You had to be freaked out a little bit.
Speaker 2:I just remember a lot of looking over at my friend and we were both kind of like our minds were blown. I think he was someone who didn't go to church at all. Then I was obviously very checked out of what little church I was going to begin with and we were just both kind of like I don't know how to get out of here right now. I don't know how to leave fast. I don't know if we were even 16 yet, so I'm not sure if we had a car or anything. So we just stuck it out. But it was just bizarre. It was so weird to me and it definitely sticks with me.
Speaker 1:Do you remember having a conversation with that friend afterward, the one that invited you Like? It was like why did you do that? What were you getting to me? I saw it right here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we just kind of probably made jokes about it forever. I forgot about it. The person that invited us I don't remember ever having a conversation with her. I think it was just like you're in deep, I don't know what else to say yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:that's tough when you it's you know they're different beliefs or just like just that they're beliefs and it's hard to get somebody to like like let's take a step back here. And why me? Why'd you pick me?
Speaker 2:What is this on?
Speaker 1:me, yeah. So what about in, like college, in your early years, because we said you don't know, really know when that transition took place of like yeah, I'm atheist, I don't really need it? Were you thinking about these things Like after school? Or is it just like? Because it sounds like to me that you're just always been a guy? That's like I was Catholic. That wasn't for me, and when I found out that it wasn't for me, like that was it? Like I just kind of lived my life and that like that was it, like there was no searching for anything else, right, is that fair?
Speaker 2:It's pretty fair. I mean, I think it was so singular in my life as the religion that I did not do a lot of research. I was just actually talking to my wife about it. She asked me the same question like an hour ago.
Speaker 2:No, I didn't. I wasn't really interested in figuring out some other God. I kind of came to the conclusion at some point, whether it's based on anything accurate or not, that it was going to be the same story with anything else and it's just a slightly changed version of the same story over and over again and again. I mean that could be way off base, so I don't know for sure. Like it. Just it became a thing that I just didn't like. I wasn't looking for answers from some I don't know magic being in the sky or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's fair. I think, like a lot of people probably will ask the question of so if you're a Catholic, you've grown up in this one particular religion, who has taught you quote unquote what's right and wrong, how do you know after that what's right and wrong? Like because you've taken, like you've grown up with these morals over here and you said, no, that's not for me, but that we don't have anything that's like a basis for it. Not that you need it, but like did you ever think about that? Like, how? Like, what's your? How do you determine what your moral compass is? And things like that.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think, as you get older, you learn what right and wrong is.
Speaker 2:You learn what not to do to people, what, what? The goal, I guess, at the end of the day, is for everybody to be okay, and that's not the case. But like you don't want to be a part of the opposite, you don't want to, you're not trying to go through life bringing people down. If you are, then and you don't know that that's not good, then I think you got other issues. I don't know. It seemed pretty straight forward to me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I wish it was that sort of for everybody Just be, just be good. It seems pretty easy. Don't be a dick.
Speaker 2:Yeah, don't be a dick Number one, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's exactly right. What about religion do you feel is the biggest? How can I phrase this? Is there anything in religion that gives you an aversion to it, christianity or otherwise? I think a lot of people go searching for something to replace the thing, and I think you're unique in the fact that you didn't do that. It's not right or wrong, it's just. It's just an interesting thing, right, so do you? Is there an aversion? Or, if so, what is it? If not, what is it? There was an aversion.
Speaker 2:Now I've kind of so. I guess the aversion was just the place I feel like where I was in high school and the people that were doing it, the teaching. I felt like there was a lot more judgment involved rather than just teaching people how to live a good life or whatever, which I think is what it really should be about. I feel like it's it ends up being something. It just felt like it ended up being something different, like the thing that causes problems in the world, one of the things that causes problems, or whatever, but it just seemed like a way more judgmental place where I just it was. I just didn't have any relation to it. I just couldn't get behind it at all and like it seemed like people would be policing the way you were acting as a teenager. That's like kids got enough pressure. They don't need you know the fear of hell on their shoulders too. Like that's. That's just a weird thing to do, that's a weird way to go about it, and I guess I came to the conclusion that none of it was real. The people that were in charge of it were trying to keep a certain group of people in line, and some throughout history. I feel like it's just been the thing and it just wasn't for me.
Speaker 2:I mean, I have come to terms with the fact that it's not all evil, it isn't that is. That's not the thing. That's not not the case. There are, there are good people who are very religious as just as much as there are bad people who are. You know, it's it's all the way around. It's.
Speaker 2:People get too bogged down. I think people get too bogged down into religion as an identity and, some people, atheism as an identity, and it becomes a thing where, if you're against it, you're attacking someone as a person and it can get very heated and horrible. And it's the same in politics now too Republican, democrat, whatever. It's all become too personal when it's a belief or an opinion. That's how it should be looked at. So my wife she believes in God. She's not a religious person, but she believes in God. So I don't know that. And Mike Sun he's two years old. He hangs out with a family member who is very Christian. She watches him one day a week. She's the sweetest woman in the world. We love her dearly and she takes him to church on Sundays.
Speaker 2:They go to Sunday school and that is something that was weird for me. It's still weird for me. It's kind of an uncomfortable thing, but I know he's in a safe place with a person who I trust very much and also he's two, he's not getting indoctrinated at the age of two.
Speaker 1:Sure yeah, it's hard to process that stuff at that age.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and at the end of the day, my wife and I talked about this a lot. Obviously she said it best. She said it's her job to teach them how to think, not what to think. I mean, if that's something that intrigues him later on in life, he'll be it. Oh, and his daycare. He came home from daycare one day and he was thinking something with the. Hosanna came up in one of the lyrics, yeah, and I was like what is happening right now? I'm not going to speak that much, so for that to be one of his words, this is before he was two, I think. Wow, bilingual, it's coming to terms with the fact that it isn't all that.
Speaker 2:And I don't want to believe anybody that I meet in life because they might believe in God or whatever, I think that I immediately have a poor opinion of them because I don't know it's up against. Again. I have the belief, opinion and your understanding that other people also have a belief in opinions, that it should be fine.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it sounds like you had to do some work to get to that point, though. Is that fair? Like to? Like to say like not, not everyone's had my experience in a shitty, but.
Speaker 2:I spent a lot of time not thinking about it up until I had kids.
Speaker 1:Oh, really, also, you got to think about shit that you never really wanted to think about at all.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I went through my 20s and most of my 30s not caring. I was fine with my opinion and, you know, in the certain setting I might let someone have it if they, you know, got tubes righteous with their whatever. And now, you know, like I said, 40, I have two children. I have to figure out how to make sure they're not horrible people in the future. So I got to do everything possible to show them how to not be a horrible person.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the kids kids force you things on the way. Yeah, kids forced your hand in trying to dissect some of this stuff that maybe I didn't. Really there's no need for you to have to worry about it. And it sounds like life was going pretty well and now all of a sudden like, oh shit, now we got to figure something out of necessity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, it became not urgent, but kind of I don't know a thing that I needed to deal with in my own hand. And like I met this family member that I watched. I met her years ago, before we were married, and she's always been a lovely person, and so I don't know, I probably made the turn then. But like to really really think about it, I think having kids had a big major part in that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Has that been uncomfortable for you, or has it been kind of like an interesting journey for you A little?
Speaker 2:bit. I mean the interesting journey part of it is my wife and I talking about it and having like real conversations about what it means and what our place is and what we're okay with, and so that's been the interesting journey part of it. And then the discomfort is, you know, you could come home sing in Jesus songs and you're like, where did that come from? Yeah, who taught you that song?
Speaker 2:But like I don't know, yeah, I'm not sending him to Catholic school at any point. We're not going to be churchgoers. I don't know. This is probably the extent of what he's going to get from it. And oh, and his daycare too. That's, I say his daycare. Yeah, I mean he's going to learn about it at some point anyways. So I don't know, it's not that big of a deal that he starts hearing about it now. Yeah, that's right. I don't think anybody's secretly taken him to get baptized. So we're fine, we're fine.
Speaker 1:So you mentioned your wife is, or believes in God. Is that like a like? How do you guys talk about that? If you're atheist and you believe there isn't a God, and she does like, are there tough conversations to be had or is it just more of a learning?
Speaker 2:No, it's. I don't want to speak too much for her, but as far as I can tell and we've had conversations about it, just trying to understand she's not like I said. She believes in God. She's not religious. It's an idea that there must be something out there. The universe is too vast for their non-Api and I'm trying to figure out a way to say that that doesn't diminish it anyway, or sound stupid, because I will make it sound stupid. She she's. There are things out of our control with these people. She knows that. She thinks there is something out there, someone that she can talk to. That she means pray. She can pray, but she does not. She's not believing God, as a Christian would call it God, like she's not putting a label of some all knowing deity. It's not, that's not it. It's a peaceful, helpful thing for her more than anything. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. It seems like the most healthy way I've ever heard someone talk about a believing God.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So it's like like it sounds like how I believe in aliens. Well, now we know they're real and we were all right, absolutely Of. Like it's so vast, so many things happen, like how could there not be a God? I don't know if I subscribed to that, but I think that's a fascinating way to look at it.
Speaker 2:For sure, I think so, neither, but that she said that and I was like it's not a bad point at all. It's a good point. Yeah right, there's an infinite amount of stuff everywhere. I guess there could be.
Speaker 1:I don't know, one question I always have for people that don't believe in a God is this question of free will, like do you believe free will is a thing, or is everything predetermined? That's such a softball question for you, right?
Speaker 2:I like to believe in free will, but I also, I don't know. Science fiction says we're all in an infinite time loop or whatever. Right, but I don't think that has to do with God, I don't know. It seems like free will. Yes, I like to believe that free will is a thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think a lot of Christians just believe that there is free will and that's why it's a beautiful thing to be able to believe in it. I don't know what if it's the same thing for people that are involved with Islam or Judaism, but that part always just fascinates me of like, if there's a God and you pray to a God and they can maybe change something, then free will, that money is the water a little bit. Yeah, it constitutes things for sure yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I just always think it's interesting when people don't believe in a God. It's like well then, is it all just chaos? Like you said? Are we living in a time loop? Is the matrix real? What are we doing here?
Speaker 2:And any of those things could be true. I have no idea, I don't know. Yeah, yeah, it is bizarre. It does mighty the waters quite a bit. I think what I like about it is that it's finite.
Speaker 2:There's a beginning and an end, and I don't know if I've dealt with the idea of the end. That probably still will give me anxiety for another couple of decades, but I don't know. I think it makes it. I'm trying not sound like a cliche or a line from a movie or something, but it makes things more important. Yeah, the life you're living now, for sure, and the idea that we're doing everything we do in life and we're acting a certain way so we can go to heaven or whatever. It just seems like a cheap and everything. Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Why don't you be a good human being so that you can just live a good life and be happy with other?
Speaker 1:things. Do it now. Yeah, so it sounds like you have a hint of the fear that I had growing up of this like the end of what happens, heaven and hell. Do you still struggle with that of afterlife or not being an afterlife? What happens when we're done here, sort of thing?
Speaker 2:At the moment. No, I'm, then, no hurry to see the end come, but the idea that I've just done. I don't know what happened before November 30th 1982. I have no feelings about the day before, the years before, decades before or whatever, and I will feel nothing or be nothing after the day.
Speaker 1:I die.
Speaker 2:So, I definitely am not afraid of going to hell. I don't know. I just I definitely am not ready for the end. Also, I'm not that accepting of it, or I'm like, if I die tomorrow, who cares? Right, and those people that do feel that way are insane. There's so much to be done. Were you ever afraid, afraid of hell? Yeah, absolutely yeah. Growing up, for sure, when I was a kid and that's part of the judgment I'm sorry about I remember losing my virginity in high school and there were kids in Catholic school I guess someone had heard about it or whatever and ever being told oh, you're definitely going to hell. Oh, wow, okay, but even before that, like elementary school, you know about hell when you're before the age of 10, like that's just insane. Like that's the motivator to be good is to not go to hell. Like that's so twisted in it To tell the children that that's just bizarre, that's terrible. I don't agree with that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't say this Great. So how like? What is the plan? Then you mentioned that your wife had said we need to teach them how to think versus what to think. So what is that like in practice? Look like, I mean, obviously you're letting them kind of experience the world and, you know, letting people show them their different faiths and beliefs, which I think is awesome. But outside of that, like what's like, how do you, how do you do that as parents? It's gotta be tough.
Speaker 2:I have no idea. Mine are two and two years and two months is the other one.
Speaker 1:So I don't know.
Speaker 2:I think it's.
Speaker 1:I think it's taking your hands off the wheel every now and then, and letting them explore certain things, letting them be, make sure they're curious, I don't know. Teach them to be curious and ask questions, seek out information.
Speaker 2:Religious or otherwise? I don't know anything. I thought that's. That's as far as I've gotten so far.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's fair, not stifle their curiosity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I just it's. It's interesting, like I and I always ask to parents because I, you know, we want to have kids someday and I don't know, like the way that I, like the way you and I grew up, is going to be completely different from the way that you and I probably raise our kids from a faith or religious standpoint, 100%, yeah, and I don't know what that looks like for me in particular. So I'm always fascinated in like all right, your kids get to a certain age to have these types of conversations. Now, what Like? What is that? Like I can't answer some of these questions for myself from a faith perspective and I think it's okay to say that, like I don't know, but I think it's important to say that, yeah, that's probably right, that's probably really important.
Speaker 2:I mean factor in it Letting.
Speaker 2:I mean that's that's an important part of making sure they're questioning people and not just accepting every bit of information they get from everybody, whether they're a teacher or a minister or whatever. Like you know, always ask questions and come up with your own opinions or solutions or whatever based on what you find out. I mean, I don't know. I mean, have make sure they have good judgment is important too. I don't really know how to do that other than setting examples for them. So there's like a lot of but before they were around, a lot of parts of my life will not tell me about because my poor judgment, or maybe I will because, hey, don't do this Lesson to be learned, yeah Right, when I was 28, I was a complete jackass, do?
Speaker 1:not do any of this.
Speaker 2:Here's the playbook for what not to do Social media you probably find some dub shed I did online. Yeah, that's scary Right. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what the answer is. I think it's especially with raising kids, it's all just learn as you go, kind of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's like who's going to fuck up their kid the least and they're going to have success, do you? So there's been a couple of people that have come on and talked about their experiences in Catholicism, and one being the sense of like I wasn't able to ask questions, like the sense of trying to just have faith. Like having faith is one thing, but then questioning the things that go into it is another thing. I think that sometimes, from what I've heard, people that go through the Catholic faith at a young age, they're kind of dissuaded from asking questions or even some of the tough questions. Was that your experience or were you guys able to kind of dig in, or did you have the interest even to do that?
Speaker 2:I think that the answers to the questions were often bullshit. It was skirting a real answer. It was like saying things like it's God's plan without giving any sort of real information. And I'm sure that wasn't every 100% of the cases, but I do remember that one happening pretty well Like, just like, pipe down what God wants. He's got a plan, that kind of thing. And I'm sure there were more intelligent people here and there that did delve deeper into it or whatever, but I don't know. It seemed in certain points in my life there were some people who were less than you should not have been the ones being at those questions.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we got a couple more questions for you, if you've got time. I know that you're busy. I do Dad of two. Right now I'm on vacation. Oh, let's go. Yeah, I see you got the cocktail already. I love that, Love this. We're making it two o'clock in the afternoon. Hey, that's God bless you, man. That's awesome. I wish I could right now. So do you ever see yourself not being an atheist? I know that's kind of a weird question to ask, but I feel like I kind of touched on a little bit at the beginning when we were talking of like atheism. In my opinion, there's just so much of belief that you have to have that there's nothing there. Versus saying like and there could be right. Like atheism is like a flat out denial of anything being out there. Do you ever see yourself having your mind change? Are you open to having your mind change? Are you kind of pretty much you've thought about it, you're good to go, it's just you know there is nothing out there.
Speaker 2:In the biblical sense of a God being out there, having created the world and all the people on it and his own name and that kind of stuff. Now I don't think there's any chance.
Speaker 1:And part of that.
Speaker 2:I think, is because of the way that I kind of came to the conclusion that it wasn't a thing that I was pressuring myself to come to the answer Just over the years, probably not thinking about it enough. It just it happened that way. I'm very comfortable with it now. There's not a bit of conflict.
Speaker 1:What about? So that's on the like, the crypt, like from a Christian sense, that God, right. What about outside of that Like, what about the way that your wife believes it? And I'm not trying to pressure you into believing something, by the way, I'm just like very, very curious. I'm just asking the same question and she's like no, I'm good Like this, I've got my own set of beliefs that are just not. They just don't mesh with what religion has or what I know about religion, and maybe it's just a sense of like you got to educate yourself a little bit from her perspective. I don't know, but I'm always fascinated by that.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think there's anything that could make me or that would change my mind, short of God himself coming down and saying, hey, maybe Bro come on. It's like, oh, but that's not coming. I don't know. Yeah, that, that just isn't it. My wife, her, the way she looks at it, I do kind of admire, because it is completely separate from, I think, what I think of that being brought up in Catholicism as God.
Speaker 2:And I think part of that is because she wasn't raised in the church at all. She wasn't. I think her family might have dabbled here and there and like maybe a couple times went to mass or something, but they were not religious people and they didn't instill that in them. They created very ethical, moral, wonderful people. Both their children are wonderful. They're adult children now. But she has this complete separation from the I guess the dogma of it all, the ritual, the being in the organization of that, like none of that has anything to do with it. It's just like her thing, it's like there's just you know, I have this connection.
Speaker 1:And it's very personal in me.
Speaker 2:And it's my thing, then I don't need anybody else to buy it, and I'm not trying to sell it to anybody. That's just where I am and it's like the most healthy version of the belief in God that I've ever heard.
Speaker 2:And it's a way that I even talking to her about it a little while ago. I was still just like so you don't have like a solid definition. She was like you're missing the point. If you're looking for a solid definition, then that's not. That's not what we're talking about. That's not what I'm talking about at all. Yeah, but look at what it says to the dictionary about God and she's like no man, I don't get it. Yeah, and I do get it. It's just like my brain automatically wants to go back into that, put it in a box, set it in a category, because I was raised Catholic, so I know I am that.
Speaker 2:And then some people are this other one and say whatever it's, I don't know?
Speaker 1:No, I relate to that a lot. It is interesting because for people like you and me that were like really young age and in this, whatever, and there's not other options presented to you no, no, I'm not saying that like you don't. It's sometimes I've, I've it'd be awesome, I think, for kids if it was like a healthcare plan they had to pick. You know, like when you start a new job, it's like you want Blue Cross for shield or like Aetna, and like you get to pick it and like maybe that should be that way for kids. Like hey, this is what all this believes, this is what all this believes. You pick it and it's like, okay, you can go to that class and like learn about it and see if it's for you, like wouldn't that be?
Speaker 2:part of it is that that would be the thickest book of categories in the world. I think there's so much out there and it's like and that's also part of my problem with Christianity, I guess is because it's just like one thing that's splintered off to this other thing they didn't like this one bit here and then that splintered off to another, because all that part here, or like it, just seems like it's so made up as we go. It's like how, how is this?
Speaker 1:how can we look?
Speaker 2:at this completely seriously and think that that is what if there was a God, if that's what he had in mind, like pick and choose the rules you like and then start your own club? Yeah, I don't. I don't understand that at all.
Speaker 1:No, I, I can't say I disagree. It's. It's tough to wrap my head around. I know there's people that are listening in a car or whatever, just shaking their head like you idiot, like that's yeah, yeah, I'm sure, and I apologize to everybody.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have to. I apologize after every episode. I feel like I have to. I am. I am so ignorant to this stuff, which is why I like to talk with people. Yeah, I think I think it's just interesting to talk to somebody that like I feel like I was put in a box too of like this is it Like. And every time you have conversations after that you immediately revert back to Sunday school or going through like your CCD classes of like well, that's, that's like you. It's like you're you're having different conversations on a different plane almost and you and they're just flying by because where we started, we can't get up to here to then meet whatever that person's talking about. And for those that are listening, that are watching, I just put my arms up in the air. No big deal. I'm like super insightful, but I it's like that's fascinating man, and that all comes from like that. I don't want to say programming, but to a certain extent, that's what it is.
Speaker 2:That's exactly what I was going to say, but sort of indoctrination as a child, yeah, but it's a certain mindset.
Speaker 1:So you're you're a happy dude right now, like you're. You're like we're atheists. We're cool, there's no God. But, like you know, it sounds like these conversations with Maggie are going great in terms of like what she believes and how that messes with, like your lifestyle. I think that's a that's a beautiful thing, man.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thank you yeah. It's going well, and I think the raising the kids part is the only spot where I thought it might be a thing that I might fall back onto just for, I don't know, some answers. But it's not and I feel pretty good about not falling back on that.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. That's an interesting point.
Speaker 2:So you thought there might be a point like you have a kid, like maybe like it might just be an easy way to you know, teach them how to not be a monster, but I don't, I don't, I don't think it's necessary, I don't love it.
Speaker 1:Well, I really appreciate the time of doing it. I said I know that well, I know you're on vacation, but you still got to be a dad when you're on vacation too. So I appreciate the time. Yeah, of course. All the best to you and the fan man. Hopefully we get to see you guys. I think we're going to be out soon. Yeah, in January or something like that.
Speaker 2:But guys are around, we'll see, we will see. Yeah, we'll see you in a minute.
Speaker 1:Awesome man. Thanks again for doing this. All the best to you guys and the family, and I'm sure we'll catch up soon. All right, see ya.
