Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
Heidi Phelps: "Struggling with Faith"
What happens when an embedded faith clashes with inner values? As we delve into this riveting conversation with our guest, Heidi Phelps, we grapple with questions about faith, Christianity, and the societal expectation to conform to a particular belief system. Heidi bravely shares her journey, from her great-grandparents' church involvement to her current struggles reconciling the biblical teachings with what she believes is humane.
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myles@findingmyreligionpod.com
Welcome to Finding my Religion. My name is Miles Phelps, so this next guest is my mom, and I first want to give a very heartfelt thank you to her for coming on, because I know that she was pretty nervous. She didn't want to sound dumb, but this conversation was honestly a lot of fun and I thought it was super important for both of us. So with that, enjoy, welcome back. We have a very special guest here today. It is my mother, heidi Phelps. We've been talking about trying to get her on this podcast for some time and I'm glad we're doing it. I was at a town, so it's just me and you in the house. We're in the green room sitting face to face, which is always a little bit different. How are you doing?
Speaker 2:I'm okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:A little nervous.
Speaker 1:What are you nervous about?
Speaker 2:Talking.
Speaker 1:Yeah, remember to speak directly into the microphone, exactly.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:All right, where to start. I feel like I've mentioned you a couple of times, so you listen to the podcast, right?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I feel like I've mentioned you a couple of times and I'm excited to have this conversation. Let's start with the obvious what's your spirituality or faith right now, Mother?
Speaker 2:I right now am struggling with my faith, but I still would say that I'm a Christian.
Speaker 1:So I think it's interesting because dad has come on here and you guys are not obviously married anymore. It's been years since you guys have been together, but you were a part of his life during, like when he was in it, going to school to become a pastor, being a pastor, being a pastor's wife. So I'm interested to hear about that. But right now, like what, what aspects are you struggling with? Is it because so background you have been a part of the same church for years? Like you were not in your hometown for 20 plus years but then when you came back, you joined the same church which my dad was the pastor of, and so you were the third generation of people to go to St John's. And I'm curious, what, what aspects of faith are you struggling with? Is it just the church or is it the actual, like God part?
Speaker 2:It's more the church and I do struggle with God too sometimes just because of the losses that I've incurred lately but I struggle with what everybody says about it or what the doctrine sometimes says, and different churches have different doctrines, so to speak, and it's just hard to come to terms with something that you've believed all your life and then kind of wonder and doubt some things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've, I've gone through that myself, so let's put a pin in that and back up. So I don't really know much about your childhood and religion. Like, were you going to church every Sunday? What was church like when you were a kid?
Speaker 2:When I was a kid, we would go to church with my mom and my grandma would come and my grandfather didn't come.
Speaker 1:Cause you're so. Great-grandma Tilly was Lutheran and great-grandpa Joe was Catholic. Correct or Catholic-ish?
Speaker 2:He was raised Catholic.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:He didn't practice Right and I don't know what happened to him that made him just. He just didn't seem to have any interest. He would come to like our special programs, like Christmas program or something and what I. One thing that he did that was lovely. Knowing that Tilly met the church meant so much to her when she became unable to drive and she didn't, she was losing her memory to Alzheimer's. He would bring her to church.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember that. I remember going to church with him. I remember vividly having, oh, I had this vivid memory of sitting in the pew with him. I think Tilly had already passed away. He would come to church some Sundays with with grandma Lynn, and I remember sitting in the pew with you, grandma Lynn, and great-grandpa Joe, and I needed like a tissue. I'd asked somebody for a tissue or something like that, and he handed me his handkerchief. I blew my nose in the handkerchief and then I went to go give it back to him after blowing my nose in it and he were mortified and you, you were like you can't get. You grabbed it away before I could give it back to him. I was like I don't know, like it was, what am I supposed to do with it now? I'm supposed to throw it away, wash it and give it back? I don't know. But hey, I remember him in church.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, that's cool. I don't remember that. I remember him bringing Tilly.
Speaker 1:He went a lot during, during, um, right after. Maybe Tilly was still alive, but maybe in the in the county home Cause she had, like he said she had, alzheimer's. She basically became, you know, incapacitated. Um, but he was there like almost every other Sunday. Yeah, so so you remember going to church with them.
Speaker 2:Well, he didn't come when I was young, Tilly came by herself and if if we were sitting with mom in a pew and Tilly came in, she would sit somewhere and maybe, like mom, can we go sit with Tilly.
Speaker 1:And we. Why wouldn't she sit with you?
Speaker 2:Maybe the pew was full or whatever oh okay, and so we'd run up the aisle and go sit with her and she always gave us gum and stuff. But so that was my earliest memories.
Speaker 1:Did you guys talk about religion at home at all, or is it just part of your? Like your, your community was going to church.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't remember having big conversations about it. Um, it's just where we went and it was just like a central part of our life. Like you said, tilly was very involved in it and mom was less less involved. I mean, she went, but she I don't remember her being like in any of the guilds or anything.
Speaker 1:No, but she would go. She just wasn't as big of a people person as Tilly was, so she would go, I remember, on Sundays after church and she would be part of the counting crew. Right the people that would count offerings, because there was like a core group of people that she enjoyed versus like yeah.
Speaker 2:She still did that. Yeah, up to the end.
Speaker 1:Um, so do you I mean with Tilly, your, your grandma, my great grandma and grandma your mom were there any conversations of religion at home, or anything like that, or is it the only thing that you got from religion was that church?
Speaker 2:Just mostly that church. Um, we went to confirmation and I did go to friends churches and I would go to other friends Bible vacation, bible schools. When I was growing up we all went to everybody's vacation Bible school and everybody came to our, I mean.
Speaker 1:Oh really.
Speaker 2:It was just something you did for a week in the summer If you were around.
Speaker 1:It's free baby sitting.
Speaker 2:Well, it was fun.
Speaker 1:Sure you know for you. Yeah, it was fun, I thought, for the parents probably free baby.
Speaker 2:Maybe, but did you?
Speaker 1:uh, what? Were there any things that you were like? Wait, we don't believe that at our church. It's different than what our church says.
Speaker 2:No, because they were. They were basically, they were all Christian churches. I mean one might have been Methodist, one might have been um Episcopal or Baptist, or the other Synod of Lutheran you know ELCA instead of Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, um, but they all had the basic tenets of what we believe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you had lost your dad at a very young age too. Do you have any memories of your dad being involved in the church?
Speaker 2:I vaguely remember him coming. I think he had joined the church and I feel like if he had lived he would have become more active. I feel like he might have played. They played this game called Dart Ball among different churches and they'd have tournaments.
Speaker 1:What's Dart Ball?
Speaker 2:I think it's kind of like well, I don't know, I never really saw it, but it has to do with the men played it. You know it was a Dart Ball League, that was a big thing.
Speaker 1:Dart Ball. Okay, I'll have to look it up. I've never even heard of it.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, that was big in the 60s, 70s.
Speaker 1:So when your dad passed away from a horrific car crash, was God talked about it all during that time? Like I feel like if you have something like a loss at an early age, like it's an easy time to talk about.
Speaker 2:I was only, I think I was five, going on six, almost six, yeah, that's young. So I didn't have any really deep things, except I had this little spiral bound notebook and it had like I think I still have it, I had and it had like a parakeet on the front of it and I wrote inside of it in yellow colored pencil the world ending and daddy dying.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God.
Speaker 2:And I don't remember doing it, but I must. I feel like I got that little spiral thing at church, so and I don't know when I would have written it, but I was like, wow, that's deep.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I should dig it out for you.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't need to see it, but it's kind of yeah. Wow.
Speaker 2:I think that's the deepest I got on that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, was church again. I mean, I know you were so young, but was church a comfort at all with that? Or was it just like you lost your dad and that was it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't remember. I think I probably sort of didn't really know how to process it and I'm still friends with some people that I was in first grade with and they said that after I came back to school after my dad died, that I would just stare out the window a lot.
Speaker 3:Oh, my God.
Speaker 2:So, but I don't remember.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So that's, interesting.
Speaker 1:So when you were older and you started to have like actual, like adult, like thoughts, were you involved with the church? So you went to confirmation? Did you ever question anything? Or was it like just that's what you were raised to do and you would go to confirmation? You go to Sunday school, you go to church and it was just part of the life? Was there any sort of like? I wonder what this all means, or any thoughts of like what else is out there?
Speaker 2:I don't think when I was younger, I don't think I had as much questioning about it. I'm sure I gave the pastor a run. I probably questioned things and was a smart ass.
Speaker 1:What do you think you would have said oh just, I can't remember anything specific.
Speaker 2:I just remember probably just you know, poking the, poking the bear somehow, but I don't remember specifically.
Speaker 1:Were most of your friends Christian then.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, yeah, I would think, I would say Did you?
Speaker 1:was there anybody in your I mean cause? We obviously went to high school in the same very small towns, very isolated and, even more so, probably at that time, more farm country than anything. Was there anybody that was Jewish Muslim, anything else? Jehovah's Witness Mormon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, there were. There were some people that I went to school with that were were that, and I think there was a Mormon and but I didn't really know much about it, but we didn't really think about it. You know, we just all went to school together.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I know, yeah, I, and I don't know that there was anybody that was atheist per se. I don't think we went to school with any Jehovah's Witnesses that I know of. I mean but there probably were some.
Speaker 1:Sure. So when I talked to dad, you guys dated in high school and then you went to college together. He had mentioned that he really pushed back on the idea of God in college because of you guys went to school at North Texas State Bible Belt what. What is your memory of like your religious identity at that time in your life in college?
Speaker 2:We, we were just like we didn't go.
Speaker 1:But, but not even that you didn't go to church, but I mean like actual, like thoughts about God, faith, anything I think it was.
Speaker 2:For me it was still there in the background, it was just sort of on the burner and being being in college and in the Bible Belt like that, I had a lot of friends that were devout Baptist.
Speaker 1:Oh really.
Speaker 2:And they went to church. You know if I remember going to church with them.
Speaker 1:Was it uncomfortable.
Speaker 2:No, it was just different. But you know, we all believed in God, but we didn't get down into the theology of it and how they looked. You know every, every religion or every, every, even every Christian sect, looks at God or the Bible through a different lens.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But ultimately God is at the center. They may interpret the Bible differently, but if you're a Christian at some, at some point you have to decide that the Bible is the word of God and you're gonna study that through whatever lens you're at. For me it was a Lutheran lens, so I didn't delve into it until I was well it was after you were born.
Speaker 2:I would go to Bible studies and dig, and then I went to some when you were in high school. So you know, you, just you can't ever stop studying it, because you change, but God doesn't. Yeah and how you look at the word. That day might be different than how you looked at it five years ago.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fair. So, and I know that I've wrench, I've referenced data lot, but I think it's important because you guys were on the same parallel track at that point and so it's interesting to see what your thoughts were compared to what he said and how you guys came to be this Pastor and pastor's wife combination later on. He had mentioned that when I was born, and you had just mentioned it too, that that's when Church started, like that's when we got back into it Is that what you remember?
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean we had already been raised in our Christian faith and and Then we went off to college and we kind of you know. But then once we had you, we were like I Feel like we should raise them in the church. We want him to know why?
Speaker 1:and why was that? Is it just like? Because that's what you did.
Speaker 2:Well, yes, and because you know, we want you to know Jesus as your savior, we want you to go to heaven.
Speaker 3:Hmm.
Speaker 2:So we, we joined a Lutheran church that was right by our house and it happened to be a Missouri Senate Lutheran Church, and and your, your dad and I got involved. I was in choir, he played the trumpet, he became an elder, he became he really was very active at church and he became so active that he decided he wanted to do it full-time.
Speaker 1:Well, it's not till later on, right, because so I was born. You guys decide that you want to go back, we're in California and then we move to Texas, and that's when he really got active right, correct, correct. He becomes an elder, he's like, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this. Was there any indication From him that you picked up on that he was maybe gonna go down this path before he told you? No so it was, so it was just out of nowhere.
Speaker 2:I was like you can swear. I was like what the fuck? What wild hair is that you know?
Speaker 1:Cuz he had a career right like he had a very good career with this what in Wild theme park that?
Speaker 2:he was what?
Speaker 1:the manager, general manager or whatever his title?
Speaker 2:was the time and we had a house house, yeah you know you and he. He said he wanted to Become a pastor and go back to school and go to the seminary and I was like I Can't be a pastor's wife. I Said to one of my friends. I said if I want to say fuck, I want to say fuck and I can't do that if I'm your pastor's wife.
Speaker 1:That is funny. That's that's funny. That's your first reaction.
Speaker 2:It was my first reaction, and then my second reaction was how in the hell are we gonna pay for this and live and and the?
Speaker 1:I yeah yeah so your dad said that by the way, that's his exact remer of it as well. Really, he knows that he blindsided you for sure. He was he knows that he blindsided you with that.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah. But I was like All right, I said Once I collected my thoughts and was like over the shock, I thought, well, okay, he said there's this weekend, you can go on and and they explain how it can be done and I'm like all right, I Went. I was like ain't no way, this is gonna happen. So we went. It was great. I was like came back and I went what was great we?
Speaker 1:what was great about it?
Speaker 2:It was very informative and and it was just- how did it quell your fears? They just showed how it's possible and Toured us around and and I was like, all right, I went home and you're not supposed to do this. I don't think in the Bible. I said okay, god, this is. If this is a God thing and not a Don thing, I'll do it. If everything you make it happen, if the things that happen need to happen happen, I'll go. Hmm, but not if it's just a wild hair up, don.
Speaker 2:So, Everything started to fall into place and weird things that if you had tried to make happen, would never have happened.
Speaker 1:Like what I remember, one being the house being sold for the house sold, then we, we had to live somewhere.
Speaker 2:We house sat for a month and that or for three weeks, and then there was another week and I mean everything just timed out perfectly and I was like all right, all right, I'll go, I'll go, and it turned out okay. It was actually turned out to be Four really nice years of our lives. I thought, yeah.
Speaker 1:I, you know, I, I think, when Joe and I were reflecting on the first episode of this season, I don't, I don't have a bad memory at At the seminary for those four years because, again, listen those episodes, the first two years dad was in basically classroom, and then your third year you do they called a vicarage, which is a, for all intents purposes, like an internship, where you have to move. So we move to Saratoga Springs and then we move back for the fourth year and then you get your, your posting. But yeah, I don't, I don't have any bad memories about that, I mean so, but you at the time, so you weren't working, you need a part-time job at the library. It was full-time, oh, was full-time. Oh, wow, I remember going to visit you the library and like fixing, like doing stuff with the copying machine or something like that.
Speaker 2:I remember what we did prior to that, I worked part-time at the Like the historical center, the. I remember that I know it's not the right term, but anyway it was like where they had um a lot of Well, my job was to look at a bunch of old German books and try and organize them, Even though I didn't really know how to speak German, but I started to figure it out a little bit.
Speaker 1:I guess you'd have to but, what? What was so as a, as a woman, knowing that this church so the Lutheran Church, missouri Synod Doesn't still, and didn't at that time, allow women pastors? How did it feel to know that the men were separate, the men were off learning something and then women were doing something else? Was that Weird for you at all? At that time, it was just like that's just what the norm was.
Speaker 2:Well, that's just the way it was.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean, I Didn't want to be a pastor so it didn't matter to me, you know sure, but even if you want to be, you couldn't you know? I mean like that yeah, I, but I probably, if I had really wanted to be a pastor, I probably would have had to have gone to, like the, the Elka Church Seminary, which in fact broke off from our, our seminary in the 70s and it was called semin X Because they Divergently disagreed on certain aspects.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I feel like every Like, even the ECLA just recently losing church, like they split off from what. Well they. I had a guest on a couple weeks ago that talked about, maybe ten years ago Maybe I might be getting my years wrong, but it was the fact of like letting the LGBTQ community Be a ministry and so like. The point there was that it feels like every denomination, no matter what, has had some sort of split, even recently in the past years, so that's not surprising.
Speaker 2:No, I mean, and when you think about it, it's not surprising because Things evolve, things change, you know, ideas change. So we're at seminary working full-time.
Speaker 1:Do you? Were you excited about Moving again after those first two years and going to Saratoga Springs?
Speaker 2:Yes, I thought that would really that's surprising to me.
Speaker 1:Because I feel like you're such a homebody.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the problem was I was never that fond of Texas or the South Sure, and because we were sent to the seminary through the Texas district. I knew that we were gonna end up back in Texas for our final call Got it, so it's nice to just try out a different place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I loved upstate New.
Speaker 2:York. Yeah, I was just asked. Would, you have lived there forever, if you could have.
Speaker 1:Yes, I loved it.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of it. I liked because the pastor and his wife there were awesome, they were great. Pastor jaco jaco, jaco jaco jaco. Jaco Jokel was the guy in in Arlington, jaco Jim and Janice jaco were in in Saratoga Springs.
Speaker 1:Okay, I trust you, I'm not so sure, but I trust you. I'm not so sure, but so leading up. So then we go to Saratoga Springs. It's great. Up there Paige is born, my sister. We moved back to St Louis for the last year. Did you have a lot of anxiety, knowing that you're probably gonna end up back in the South that last year?
Speaker 2:No, I just enjoyed that year. It was nice. Okay, I didn't worry about it until call day, and there it was.
Speaker 1:What was that like?
Speaker 2:It was exciting, except some people got to go to really cool places and we went to.
Speaker 1:Do you remember a place? Oh, like, maybe a friend went that you're like man. I wish we were going there.
Speaker 2:Oh Well, someone went to Colorado. I mean they go all over the country. Sure New York.
Speaker 1:So the process is you're essentially thrown into a hopper and you get your name drawn based on the needs of open churches.
Speaker 2:True, true.
Speaker 1:But, like you said, there's some some politicking involved.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Little bit. I'll talk about that.
Speaker 2:Little bit. Well, the president of that Texas district. You know he would come see the seminary students from the Texas district. They'd have a Texas district picnic.
Speaker 1:I remember going to In September. Wearing cowboy boots and going to a party.
Speaker 3:Right.
Speaker 1:I remember this is a sidetrack, but I remember we always use the back fire escape to go places, right, because it wasn't like a fire escape that you see in, like New York City, that like slides down, it was just like the back stairs essentially, but people call it the fire escape. Right, and it was metal.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I remember wearing Clunk, clunk, clunk clunk Yep, I remember. Did you slide down on your back?
Speaker 1:No, I remember wearing cowboy boots with shorts, obviously.
Speaker 2:Of course.
Speaker 1:And we were going to the party and I slipped and I went end over end front ways.
Speaker 2:Oh no.
Speaker 1:And we were on the third floor, remember, and I stopped at the second floor and I don't remember how hurt I was, but I was fine enough to be like, no, we're good, like let's go to the party. And you and dad are like, are you sure? I'm like, yeah, let's go, we got to. It's a Texas party, look, we got to go. But I remember like being excited about that every year Go to the Texas party.
Speaker 2:Good.
Speaker 1:But so there's a large contingency of people from the South that were there, and so they got us back into Texas. I assume Were you disappointed with the town that we ended up in.
Speaker 2:No, not really it. Just because it was Texas and because it was a small town and we were Yankees. Essentially, I felt a little bit ostracized in some ways, because there was a Bible study women's Bible study in our neighborhood and I asked if I could join it and they said oh, we're full. And I was like all right, thanks. And that was just one thing. There were several others where I was just like all right, I'm a Yankee, I don't fit in.
Speaker 1:It was a unique town, but our- church people.
Speaker 2:Our church congregation wasn't like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they were great. I mean everybody was super nice at the church. But yeah, it was a small town. I mean dad and I talked about in his episode we had a Walmart. There's a movie theater that sometimes worked. There was a Pennies JC Pennies.
Speaker 2:Thank God.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, thank God.
Speaker 2:I don't know what I would have done without that. Well, it's better than Walmart.
Speaker 1:Is it? I don't know, but yeah, they had the Black Eyed PG Embry around the courthouse look at that. But yeah, it was interesting and all of my friends were pastors kids and that's the thing that I take away from that.
Speaker 2:That was the weirdest thing, because you all just happened to be the same age and the same grade and your dads all happened to be pastors of the Lutheran church, the Baptist church and the Methodist church in this one town. What are the odds? It's wild.
Speaker 1:It was crazy and like. The other thing too is like like how many churches are in this small town?
Speaker 3:There was a lot.
Speaker 1:How many churches do we need?
Speaker 2:And then there was a Catholic church and there were several Baptist churches. For sure, there was at least three, yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Was there. Do you remember any other like? Was there any like Jewish temples, or I would assume not.
Speaker 2:Gosh, I don't know. I don't recall that there was, I doubt it but I don't know.
Speaker 1:So we were there for a while and then dad gets the opportunity to go to Sycamore, your hometown. If you want to hear about that process, close in his episode. But were you excited? Obviously, I would assume you're excited about getting back to Sycamore.
Speaker 2:I was, but I was very sad, I had mixed emotions and I really wanted to go for the right reasons and I unfortunately I think I put that all in your dad.
Speaker 1:Like. What do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:Because it was his call and I wanted him to go for the right reasons.
Speaker 1:What are the right reasons in your mind?
Speaker 2:The right reasons are that you feel a call, you feel that God is leading you to go there, and you're not just going there because you'll want to go there, because it's home.
Speaker 1:Right and grandma's there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great grandma's there. Maybe, and maybe that's why I don't know, maybe that's why we got the call, but then I was. I hated to leave where we were and it was. It was gut-wrenching for me and I can't really imagine what it was like for your dad, and but I felt like he had to make the final decision.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that it was that big of a. I didn't know was that difficult a decision for you.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I just assumed that you wanted to get the hell out of there.
Speaker 2:Well, I loved our congregation and I had some good friends and you and Paige had friends, so you know it was hard.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we moved to Sycamore, illinois, where grandma Lynn was. We had your grandma there, great grandma Tilly, high school classmates that were there. What was it like, those first like couple of months of like being in your childhood church, essentially?
Speaker 2:Well, it was weird, because now your dad's in a leadership role and you know I'm tagging along, and it was just weird.
Speaker 1:What about? It was weird the fact that you were now a pastor's wife.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't think I ever really felt really like I belonged in that role, but I'm not.
Speaker 1:What would be? How would you have belonged, Like what would have been different about what you were or who you were?
Speaker 2:I don't like to be the center of attention.
Speaker 1:Do you feel like that's the role of a pastor's wife?
Speaker 2:No, but I often was the center of attention just because I was married to the pastor and you know, you kind of have. You have a bit of a, I guess, expectation to be welcoming to visitors and I don't know, Maybe I put that pressure on myself.
Speaker 1:But yeah, maybe I mean probably almost certainly right. I mean Probably. Because it's not like you're the first lady, but Right. In your mind you probably kind of were, because this is your husband's job and people probably put that pressure on you without even noticing it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, maybe.
Speaker 1:Because I definitely got it as a kid.
Speaker 2:Did you?
Speaker 1:I mean I told the story on another episode but being in oh, where people would expect you to know the Bible. Yeah like being in Sunday school and be like some random dad's teaching school and he would say, oh, this passage means this and this. Actually, let's ask Miles and see what he has to think You'll be like. I don't fucking know.
Speaker 2:Well, my answer to that was always I'm not the one that went to seminary.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I didn't. I mean, we didn't get the benefit of taking those classes, so yeah, yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 1:So your time as a pastor's wife like if you look at your entire history, was it mostly stressful? Because as a kid I remember you not enjoying it at all, like trying to set up boundaries as much as you could, especially when we lived right across the street from the church in the parsonage. Like I remember boundaries being like a huge thing. But the entire experience, was it mostly a stressful time for you? A?
Speaker 2:lot of it was yes. I would say Just you know, feeling the pressure, maybe self-inflicted, maybe not, maybe both.
Speaker 1:Sure Sure.
Speaker 2:I like to fly under the radar. I don't like to be noticed like that.
Speaker 1:Right. So dad ends up leaving the church. There's a big fire We've already talked about that. Again, if you haven't listened to dad's episode it's Don Phelps his name. Go listen to that one, because we talk about all this stuff Leaves the church, has a bunch of personal issues that end up pretty much uprooting our family. Unfortunately, you're now single. You guys are not together. What was your relationship with your faith at?
Speaker 2:that time I prayed a lot.
Speaker 1:Did you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I felt like I felt very, I was in the choir and I felt like they were my posse, like I would go to church but be in the choir, and I felt okay, so I didn't have to go sit in a pew.
Speaker 1:You had a job to do, you could focus. I had a job to do.
Speaker 2:I had a place to be. I belonged in that spot and that I think that helped a lot. Plus, everybody was very supportive and I just kept going.
Speaker 1:When dad was finally let go from the church, was it like pity that you were receiving, or was it more support or a little bit of both?
Speaker 2:I felt mostly support. I don't know about pity yeah.
Speaker 1:I felt pity.
Speaker 2:Did you? From who I?
Speaker 3:just you know everybody.
Speaker 1:We have to take care of Miles. Like he's like and it came from a place of love it's not, you know, malicious or anything but I remember just feeling pity everywhere I went.
Speaker 2:Well, maybe there was.
Speaker 1:So that happened. There's a couple of years there where it's really really tough for our family. I go away to college. Paige is still in school. You're living with grandma Lynn. You guys still went to the same church. Did you ever think about not going to that church, like the church that dad was the leader of?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Because you always told me that why should I have to go to a different church? That's my childhood church. Do you still feel like that today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, it was my church. Why should I leave?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's balding. I didn't do anything wrong.
Speaker 1:No, and I think a lot of people would have just packed it in and been like well, I don't wanna deal with this shit, but you Well, it also helped that I could sit in the pew with my mom and my daughter.
Speaker 2:You were at school, that helped, but I mean it was my church. I know most of those people since I was young.
Speaker 1:Still, I mean, I think I still think it's ballsy, not in a bad way. That's like, oh the gall. It's just super interesting to me, because I would have been like fuck this shit, I'm gone, like I don't wanna talk to anybody about, I don't want the pity, I don't want the stairs, I'm starting over somewhere else and you easily could have done that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I suppose so, but you did me and I for better or worse, I don't know, but that's just what happened and sounds like you had a lot of support doing that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I feel like I did.
Speaker 1:Um, so let's fast forward. Recently We've had, we've lost Gramalyn, lost your sister and Amy to cancer. And we mentioned at the top of the show that you're struggling with what it is that you believe. How did you get to that point where you realized you were struggling? Because you've gone through a lot in your life. Faith has always been cornerstone. Why now do you feel like you're struggling and what specifically are you struggling with?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it started when we had a pastor. We had a pastor, I think the one after your dad came. Yeah, he was someone else, and when your dad was pastor, our choir and Salem's choir would do a joint cantata.
Speaker 1:Oh, really, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Well, and when our church burned down, Salem offered their choir room for our choir to practice in on nights. They didn't need it and many of the churches in town were very supportive when the church burned down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Helped us in many ways and the pastor that came immediately decided that we couldn't do a joint cantata anymore because he didn't want that pastor saying any kind of a prayer at our altar. Because we believed different things, different doctrinally.
Speaker 1:Was there something specific that he was referencing? Well, it was Salem and it was Elka.
Speaker 2:and they what's Elka you keep you've mentioned that a couple of times Evangelical.
Speaker 1:Lutheran Church of America. Oh, that's just the acronym. So I had that spelled out in my head versus the acronym Okay, I'm with you. Okay, so anyway, and I went to see him and this pastor and to share my thoughts on how I thought it was divisive and not good for our church. Not good for the community.
Speaker 2:And he wouldn't have said that. I don't remember specifically, but he said no.
Speaker 1:And after that, do you think he was threatened by the fact that you were a former pastor's wife?
Speaker 2:No, I think he really was he knew what he was doing and he thought that he was correct. That guy sucked. I'll say that again. Well, after that, our choir, that's the so. Our choir started to dwindle and I eventually left choir and then I started not going to church.
Speaker 1:So he had the meeting with the pastor about the choirs not being able to do their joint session. He says no, and you're like all right, I'm out. Did you stop going to choir at that point? I stopped going to choir eventually.
Speaker 2:I think our choir director left, and after he left I was kind of like I'm done, and so I started to go to choir and I eventually stopped going to church. So then, today, what things are you struggling with? Like what parts of it?
Speaker 1:Well, now we have a new pastor and he seems very nice.
Speaker 2:I haven't really seen him in a while and he seems very nice. I was going to talk to him but that's never happened. With everything that went on, I'm just not sure I believe in that hardcore, unrelenting doctrine.
Speaker 1:What parts?
Speaker 2:Well, the way that they feel about the LGBTQ people or anyone that's not you know. I would need to like delve into it deeper, like study a little more, and I haven't done that. So I struggle with that. I just I need to do some searching.
Speaker 1:It seems to me that and this is my thoughts on your spiritual journey, which is weird and also maybe out of line, but it feels to me that you have never aligned with the evangelical Missouri Synod, Going back to even talking like I just interviewed Joe Ross this season and we talked about his sister-in-law who was gay, wanted to get married, had invited you and dad.
Speaker 1:I remember that you wanted to go, dad said he couldn't. And I remember at the time being like, oh yeah, dad's probably right, you know, because that's what we learned in the Bible, or whatever, and looking back like he's mortified about that fact that he had that stance, I'm mortified that I had that fact. But I remember also thinking like this is fucked up, like that, this is even a conversation.
Speaker 1:But you were the one that was like no, we should go, these are our friends. She's getting married to another woman who gives a shit. So it's interesting that you've always been a part of this church and yet I don't think that you really believe the things that this church believes.
Speaker 2:That's why I feel like I need to study and explore and figure things out, because I also wanted to align with the Bible, because that's where my faith is based. So I need to study.
Speaker 1:What things do you feel like you would be interested in learning more about? Like what things do you specifically want to look at?
Speaker 2:Just how to reconcile what I feel is humane with God and the Bible and Jesus. And you know, how can we be so adamant that when I see what is it the Christian right wanting to have everything be a certain way, I just have a hard time with that. That just doesn't seem human.
Speaker 1:It's cruel. So for me, I feel like that's conscious, that's your conscience talking to you.
Speaker 2:Mine, yeah, anybody's.
Speaker 1:We know what's right and wrong.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:You see it and you could be like, no, that's messed up. But it also could be like if you believe in God, which I mean, I don't think that I really do, but for you like if your faith is still a thing like maybe that could be your faith that's leading you down there, or like God talking to you like hey look, look, dude.
Speaker 2:Like you know, yeah, I just never. I could never just shun a friend, you know, because of their orientation or Because, when you think about it, um, a lot of things are sins. I mean sin is sin. Gossip is a sin. Slander in the Bible, homosexuality is a sin. But we all sin. We all sin, but in the Bible, in God's eyes, one sin isn't greater than another.
Speaker 1:So do you think that homosexuality is still a sin?
Speaker 2:I don't know, but you know, I think if you believe in the Bible, then yes, maybe I do think that, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to have friends, that I mean we all sin. Gossip isn't any worse than homosexuality or, you know, having sex outside of marriage or you know anything. They're all sins, maybe, according to the Bible, but one isn't worse than another. So why do people just grab on to one thing? You know? That's what I have a problem with. I guess thinking of it like that, yeah, I mean it's sad.
Speaker 1:I mean it's sad for me to hear you say that honestly, to say that you know and I know we're focusing on one, just like one thing, but it's a big thing. I mean, one of our best friends is gay and he came on this podcast and he's a devout Catholic and to say that who he is is like that's the thing that gets me, is like saying who somebody is is a sin, that's what that is.
Speaker 1:No I think that's what that, that's what that is because I'll be if we say that home it no sin is greater than the other. Yeah right murder, just it's slander and then if we add homosexuality in there or or me sleeping, you know, outside of marriage, you know.
Speaker 1:So it's all sin, that's, but that those are one of those. It are three of those are choices. Right, if we're talking about your sexual orientation, I Think we've agreed upon as a society that like, well, maybe we haven't this society, but like, I like to think that as a society, we've Agree that this is not a choice. This is who you are.
Speaker 2:So if that's another, another dynamic.
Speaker 1:So if we're saying that if you're born Like our, our one of our best friends, our family friend, if we're saying that he's born gay, he's born sinful and like I know that world, like the Bible says, we're all born sinful, right. I have to ask forgiveness and believe and all that stuff, but he didn't kill anybody. He's not talking bad about people on a daily basis. He just is that person so he can't even exist Without being sinful, without having that sin.
Speaker 2:Nobody can't, nobody can really but this is different, because why is it different?
Speaker 1:I'm. If I'm born how the Bible says I should be born hetero mario. Woman, man is in charge, the female follows suit. If You're a homosexual, if you're gay, you're born your entire being is sinful because that's who you are. My I'm not gay. We have friends that are gay. So if you're born that way, if we think that homosexuality is a sin, they are born their entity, who their self is sinful. That's tough. That's tough for me to swallow.
Speaker 2:I'm not. I'm not looking at it that way.
Speaker 1:But that's what it is, that. That's that's how it would have to be viewed if we, if we, think that homosexuality is a sin. That's how it would have to be viewed.
Speaker 2:There's no other way to view that right right and see, that's where I'm struggling with my faith in the Bible, because I can't. I can't make that work in my head. So there you have it, yeah it's tough.
Speaker 1:It is time I mean it's also like I Think you also have to give yourself a little bit of leeway because you grew up in this church. You didn't have a choice to grow up in this church, you just did it and it's a part of your community. Fantastic people in that church, awesome. Also a lot of shitheads in that church, I think that in any 1000 organizations that way.
Speaker 1:However, I think that you, a lot of your struggle is not only in the doctor, and it's that community that you're afraid of losing. Do you feel like that's fair?
Speaker 2:Well, I've, but I've already lost it.
Speaker 1:How do you feel like you've lost it?
Speaker 2:Because I don't go, I'm not part of it, I'm not, I'm not nurturing those. You know what?
Speaker 1:to expect, like if you were to go to church, you would know exactly what's gonna happen. The church services run the exact same. You know that there's gonna be a community service, a non-community service. There's two services. You know what's gonna be talked about. You know the hymns, you know the prayers.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, the structure right if you were to go to a different church, if you were, say, to go to to an ECLA church, you were go to Methodist Baptist. It's different and that would be uncomfortable, so that I guess that's what I mean. The community, but also the structure of the services, is what you have the familiarity of the right for 60 years, right like not to give away your age, but but I think that's a huge part of it as well and again, that's maybe me projecting, but that's just what I see.
Speaker 2:Fair, yeah, I could see that is it so?
Speaker 1:are there any other parts of the, the doctrine that you struggle with outside of? You know what we've already covered.
Speaker 2:Oh, probably I. Nothing comes to mind right now, but do you so?
Speaker 1:one thing that? The other thing I wanted to ask you that I just remember it is I talked to Joe, my wife, on the first episode when she interviewed me about this fearfulness, like when I was in Church and a part of Christianity. I Was just deathly afraid what?
Speaker 2:were you afraid all the time?
Speaker 1:going down that that was always in the distance of. Hey, it's it's. It almost felt like and Christians are gonna hate this but it almost felt like a a Pyramid scheme isn't the right word but like hey, it's so easy, all you have to do is believe. Come on man, just like, just do it, just believe. You're so funny come over here and believe and everything's cool. If you don't believe, you're going to hell. Those are the two, two different options but what is it?
Speaker 2:What is it they wanted you to believe?
Speaker 1:that they believe in God but go ahead.
Speaker 2:What they really wanted you to believe Was that Jesus was your savior and that's how you were gonna go to heaven.
Speaker 1:But that's so fucked up to say why though? Because you have to believe this thing and, if you don't, that that nothing in the world is black and white. No, you know, and right, and that thing is like. You not only have to have faith that that exists. Right you have to have faith that it's that black and white. I know and and I had still have friends that were Hindu. Oh.
Speaker 2:That's another thing I wanted to say, yeah we can get to that.
Speaker 1:Where it's like so you're telling me, and I've asked this question when it's like okay, so you're telling me, I Gotta believe I get to heaven, otherwise it go to hell. Cool, I'm terrified my entire life now.
Speaker 1:I kind of am too exactly, and I've just I've just recently become very, very comfortable in that unknown of. Maybe there's nothing cool, that's fine, like I'm okay with that. But if you were to believe, you're telling me that, like I, we had a friend that was Hindu in high school and her mom was like the nicest person I've ever known in my entire life. It's like she's going to hell. And the answer was yeah. I was like okay, all right, like what do you think about that?
Speaker 2:I struggle with that too, because are you gonna tell me that if you're Muslim, or Hindu or or Jewish or whatever religion you are, what if? What if we're all believing the same thing, but we're just calling it something different?
Speaker 1:right, I've heard it described recently as we all believe in the same God. The lens I think you said lens earlier that we get there is different. So, like Jewish, muslim, christian, it could be the same God.
Speaker 2:But right the way that people Navigate.
Speaker 1:That is different right.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I, I, yeah, I'm dealing with that too. It's just, and maybe I, I Just. I used to have more of a blind faith, and now I'm questioning a lot which I think is healthy, because Blind faith is fine if you really believe it.
Speaker 1:And I did at the time however, I think To really have faith, you have to question. Like you could go through this entire process, mom, and be like you know what I was right, like I believe what I believe. I'm like okay, you've done the work and you believe it, and that's respectful. We are never gonna agree on that stuff and that's fine. I'm uncomfortable with that. However, if you don't do that, you're selling yourself short and that's not really faith. That's laziness, right to just be like I have always believed this and and that's it. I have these questions. I'm gonna push those down Like no you should.
Speaker 1:You should confront them Face on, like whatever happens happens, like, maybe it strengthens your faith, maybe it doesn't maybe it shake it's and then then you know, and then you have a well, my faith is shaken already.
Speaker 2:I just there's just so much more to To study. I mean, I guess you could study your whole life people do it. People have done it. I'm selfishly. I want to, to see my family again you mentioned. I want there to be a lot about I mentioned.
Speaker 1:I think I talked to you in time and I said, yeah, I don't, I don't really believe in in God. And your first reaction was, well, I'm gonna see you again and I that it hit me and Then, like I had to turn it around and just be like I don't know, that's not on me, you know that's, that's, that's your faith. I Can't carry that burden of. Maybe not because I'm comfortable in the fact that, like I'm gonna, I'm more concerned with Seeing you now. Then I am about some made-up place in the sky or maybe a real.
Speaker 1:Awesome place in the sky, like. If that happens, that's just like cherry, right? This is the thing for me. That's how. I try to view it.
Speaker 1:Well, definitely you want to make the best time together and also I you know, I feel like I have to give you some leeway too, because you've had way more loss in your life and like wouldn't it be amazing if you could see your dad again? You know, and have it like that would be awesome, right mm-hmm but I don't know like that, that's, that's. That's a tough thing to swallow.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So, what do you like? What's your? What's your next steps? What's your plan?
Speaker 2:well, I Guess I need to visit some churches and talk to some pastors, and I don't know.
Speaker 1:Reverend Preston Fields from Salem with in Church came on a couple episodes ago and him and I had a great conversation.
Speaker 2:I haven't listened to that one.
Speaker 1:Let me go from there. He's a great dude. Cool, cool, what. What are you expecting to find on these visits? Do you feel like even Christianity is the right place?
Speaker 2:I don't know. It's the only thing I've ever known. It's hard to say. I can't imagine anything else at this point, but who knows?
Speaker 1:Well, joe always asked me to say my wife, she always asked me to ask what else didn't we talk about? That you wanted to say I should have taken notes. Well, luckily this is recorded.
Speaker 2:I should have taken notes when I've listened to your podcast and I go oh, I want to talk about that.
Speaker 1:Which ones have you listened to?
Speaker 2:Well, I've listened to you and Joe. I've listened to your dad. I've listened to Paige, I've listened to oh, who else have you done?
Speaker 1:Tim.
Speaker 2:I listened to Tim.
Speaker 1:What did you think about Pages? Hers was interesting to me. It was a lot of like I don't know. That's right. That's why I told the episode? I don't know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I thought that was good. I would like it if you guys would study and delve into it more.
Speaker 1:I mean, I'm literally doing a podcast on a really short podcast, right.
Speaker 2:But I mean, like you know, do you go to a Bible study? Do you study?
Speaker 1:So you want us to go to Bible study and, like, actually read the stuff.
Speaker 2:The Bible.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, yes, if only to figure out more where you stand. Like it's hard to make a judgment on something that you haven't studied a bit.
Speaker 1:But, mom.
Speaker 2:But I know, I mean, I know you went to confirmation and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:I mean we were in it. We were so far in it.
Speaker 2:I was in it too, but I didn't learn a lot of it until I went to adult Bible studies where you really it was not denominational studies, where you really studied. You know, it was very interesting.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 2:Not to sway you. Not to sway you to be one way or the other, but just so that you have a deeper knowledge of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think I think that's fair. I think that it's also extremely difficult for me to get on board with something that doesn't follow the same principles that I have.
Speaker 2:But I mean just so that you know from once you speak, maybe so you can have a before you toss it aside, so you understand it, so you know what, what you're saying, what you're, you know what I mean I do, and I feel like I've done that work without having to go to a Bible study or even not even go to a Bible study, but even just do it on your own Sure.
Speaker 1:Which you know definitely have for sure. Yeah, I mean I I haven't read the Bible cover to cover in my life either, honestly. I don't feel like I need to go to a local church to a Bible study. However, there is a lot of interfaith communities in Mass and where I live. Oh okay, and part of what's cool about doing this podcast is that I get to talk with everyone People that I don't agree with at all, people that I agree with a lot and in doing that you learn a lot about the really cool aspects of religion.
Speaker 1:So I think you and I have conversations where I come across as probably a little bit jaded to religion.
Speaker 2:Right Religion is beautiful.
Speaker 1:Faith is beautiful. It is just not for me, because I can't get past some of the things that are really, really important to me. I just can't do it and I don't know if I'll ever be do it, and I'm okay with that. I don't think I need religion. I think religion for a lot of people is a really good, community-based thing. This fucking dog I tell dude he, joe, you're listening to this your stupid dog is just whining the entire time we've been doing this podcast, but anyway, yeah, I lost my train of thought there because this dog was whining, but I'm comfortable in that unknown. That's where I'm at right now. What else you want to talk about?
Speaker 2:I can't think of anything at the moment. Anything else you want to talk about?
Speaker 1:No, I just I think. I hope that you find some sort of comfort in this belief and that you're able to like deconstruction is the hot word right now of you know, deconstructing your evangelical background.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Which I think is important, because if you can break down what it is you believe again, you're able to get to a point where you're like it either strengthens your faith or you go down a different path, and that's okay.
Speaker 2:Both things are okay, as long as your faith is not harming another person, right, I guess where it, and maybe this is just because I was feeling the loss. But you know, the pastor said you know how you doing, because I did go to church once or twice with the new pastor and you know I said not that great and he said, well, you know, they're in a better place. And I'm like, yeah, but I want him here, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, it didn't bring me. That's bullshit either way.
Speaker 2:It didn't bring me comfort. Yeah, maybe they're in a better place, but that doesn't make me feel any better. Yeah, it's not comforting. And maybe that's just. You know, I wasn't, I was just being selfish, but I'm not selfish. But you know, I said, yeah, it's not helping. Yeah, I mean so there was no comfort for me. So is that? But is that what religion is for? I don't know. I thought it was supposed to bring you comfort and hope, and I don't know.
Speaker 1:So it didn't for you.
Speaker 2:Not that day.
Speaker 1:Has it since.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's tough.
Speaker 2:I don't know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think you know grandma said at one time. She said I can't imagine what people do that don't believe in God. When someone dies, like she couldn't wrap her head around dealing with loss for someone that didn't believe in God, or that if she didn't believe in God, like what? How do you even do that?
Speaker 2:But I believe, if I believe in God and I, and it didn't bring me comfort. What does that say?
Speaker 1:I don't think it says anything. I think it just says that that's the human experience.
Speaker 2:That's the big question.
Speaker 1:I think we've reached our limit, because these stupid dogs are starting to wrestle, as you can probably hear in the background, so we'll probably wrap it up there, but thank you so much for doing this and thanks for talking and being open. Well, thanks for having me, of course, of course. Yeah, I really I'd hope that you're able to to do that work that you're talking about and get to a point where you're comfortable Me too.
Speaker 2:Love you, love you too, babe.
Speaker 1:Thanks again to Heidi for coming on and just having a candid conversation. I think that's important to do with parents and I'm glad that she was open to it. Next week we're gonna be talking to our guest, Katie Piles. Here's a sneak peek.
Speaker 3:And, like I said, I had always been like spiritual as a child, Like I connected really easily with the idea of God. You know it was. It's just always been something that's been simple for me. Why?
Speaker 1:do you think that is Because I don't feel like that's typical? I mean, because it definitely wasn't for me. But why do you think it just clicked for you as a kid? Was it your support system that you had? Was it your priest?
Speaker 3:Like, what was it about it that just I don't know, I have no idea, and I think about that a lot and, like, I think the Bible talks about like faith being a gift of the spirit. So I don't know if it's just like something that I have, but I don't know that that's what that is Like. I think maybe that's something I don't understand very well and I'm just trying to make sense of my experience. I don't know, I don't know Because it then it gets into a whole bunch of like semantic questions for me about like that's next time on Finding my Religion.
