Shea Quinn: "A Faith Journey"

Ever pondered the intriguing complexities of faith and religion? This episode, we're privileged to host Shay Quinn, a dog trainer and hunting guide whose unique spiritual journey will challenge your perspectives. From early skepticism of traditional religious narratives to a profound connection with nature, and finally, a deep personal faith, Shay's story is a testament to the dynamic nature of spiritual growth.

Transcript

Exploring Faith and Religion

Speaker 1 0:01

Welcome to Finding my Religion . My name is Miles Phelps . Before we get to this next guest , I got to say a couple of things . First , thank you so much for listening thus far . It's been awesome to see the feedback for season two and I can't wait to show you guys what we have in store . Second , if you haven't told any of your friends about this podcast , that is the best way for us to get new listeners , so please do that . Lastly , if you haven't already I know I've asked a lot , but if you haven't , please subscribe , rate and review the podcast , and that's how we can reach people that we don't know . And with that , let's hear what Shay has to say . Alright , we are back . Another one of these guests . Man , People just keep reaching out . It's been awesome to see the feedback for season two . Shay Quinn is joining me . Shay and I went to the same high school . We know a lot of the same people out in Sycamore where we are both from . But , Shay , how are you doing , man ?

Speaker 3 1:15

Doing very well . Life is good . I'm a lucky guy .

Speaker 1 1:18

So you had reached out to me on Instagram and I actually wanted to ask you . So you're doing dog training . Is that kind of what the page is about ? Like talking about that .

Speaker 3 1:30

Yeah , so I am really bad with social media . So my social media for Instagram is really mostly for my clients , so that they can watch the progress of their dog and just make little clips of their dog . I used to try to do other stuff with it , with my work , but I just found I wasn't very good at it , so I'm just keeping it simple . But the page itself is more like hey , I'm going to put this Instagram live on and I'll save it on my feed , so then if my client wants to watch later how their dog's doing , I can . So yeah , I'm a dog trader .

Speaker 3 2:08

Yeah , I'm a dog trader full time and then I also am a hunting guide . I guide , visit and do some .

Speaker 1 2:18

So yeah , I never got into hunting but I appreciate people that can do it . We have . We have two dogs we have . They're both kind of like hound type dogs . One is a train walker , coon hound , and he is just the dumbest dog so he's smart when he like . You obviously have to spend time with him , as you know . But yeah , he's got like two trees in the backyard where you open the door and he just sprints right to it and he would just sit there for like an hour and a half and just wait , wait for that squirrel to come down the tree .

Speaker 3 2:50

Yep , I always . I tell people whenever they're thinking about getting a hound and say , well , no , don't get one , because they are close . They are the closest thing to a wild animal in a dog that we have . So if you want a good time raising your dog not you , not that you can't have a dog you like , but just go get your Maltese . Go get that thing , because that thing was bred to be raised by hillbillies killing raccoons , you know , and race .

Speaker 1 3:22

People aren't doing that , right . Yeah , the kill count for these two guys is pretty high and now that we have our own house , like they , they got a baby raccoon the couple months ago and that was super traumatic Just stuff I never was really prepared for . But you live in your home and you're just a dog , so I'm just gonna go get a dog . So I'm just gonna go get a dog .

Speaker 3 3:42

Okay , so let's see if I can learn .

Speaker 1 3:44

He's , he's a good dog , but , yeah , we might have to reach out to you and just just look him into shape here for a second .

Speaker 3 3:53

What's , what's your ? What's your Instagram handle , by the way , for dog training ? I think it's . Just let me pull it up . I think it's a .

Speaker 1 4:01

See this how bad I might not be in the sick morning but well , if you're well , if you're in the area of Sycamore , DeKalb and you need a dog trainer , hit my man , Shay , up . So let's talk about religion . You reached out and said that that you know you were very interested in having this conversation and again , I'm honored to be able to do this . So thank you for spending the time to do it . But what's what's your faith and what's your religion at this point in your life ?

Speaker 3 4:31

That's what a cool question , because I don't really have a religion . It's . I see religion as and I think a lot of people see this religion as something Well , you know what ? I probably have a religion , but I might not be aware of it . So I see religion as something that has to do with your habits and your practices , whether conscious or unconscious , and oftentimes religion is I'm going to do these rituals or these , have these habits in the name of my faith .

Speaker 3 5:05

So I probably do things out of habit that have to do with my faith that I'm not aware of , but I don't actively pursue practices on a daily basis . I'll pray occasionally . I'm not a big prayer but I will do it . I'll fast , but I'm not a religious or faithful faster . I do it more for like health benefits . But my faith I wouldn't really call it anything necessarily other than that I believe that God is real . I believe that he is . He is a being like a person , not like a person necessarily in a physical form , but he is identifiable as having a personality , and I believe that he is making everything better eventually .

Speaker 1 5:59

So like a personal God , like somebody that you can go to , to pray to ? Is that kind of what your mindset is ?

Speaker 3 6:08

Yeah , I think he exists and he can hear me , so and he loves me and he loves you . So I think that that just kind of comes with the territory . If he's personal , which I believe that , and he's almost almost identified I don't really know how else to explain it other than almost identifiable as a human , almost If he's those things , then I'm able to talk to him and then , I'm able to confess things , I'm able to be worried about things , then I like that .

Speaker 1 6:46

So let's back up then . So I'm always interested in the journey . That's . That's kind of what my , my , were , my interest lie what , what did ? How did you guys grow up ? I mean , I'm used to be pretty close with your sister . I know you have a younger brother . Were you guys a religious family ? Did you guys go to church ? What was that like ?

Speaker 3 7:05

No . So we went to a church when I was like six or seven for like one year and it was the Federated Church in Sycamore . I'm sure you remember , anyway , but we I remember as a kid just hearing these Bible stories and watching people doing stuff , and even as a young kid doing this ridiculous . How does anybody ever believe this ? And then , but we stopped going and my family is not religious at all . They're , they're , they have . No , I think maybe some of them might pray occasionally , but not raised any sort of . I don't think I ever saw a Bible in the house and never saw a Quran in the house . Maybe I would see something about like meditation . My mom like reading it , but there's nothing . Was ever like , hey , you need to pray before dinner or make sure you go to confession this week .

Speaker 2 8:07

There's none of that .

Speaker 1 8:10

So six or seven , and you're having feelings about what you're being introduced to you , like what , what part of that seemed ridiculous to you . Was it the fact that there was a God ? Or like , was it the stories you're hearing ? Well , what memories do you have about that ?

Speaker 3 8:26

So I remember as a kid that those questions fascinated me and they still do , but I think it was the way that the that these questions were answered is what sort of made me think it was ridiculous , Like the

Exploring Atheism and Religious Beliefs

Speaker 3 8:42

flood .

Speaker 1 8:42

Noah's .

Speaker 3 8:43

Ark , the flood , I think when it's presented to you , it's presented to you in a way as if you believe it or you don't , or this miracle , and if you don't believe it , too bad , if you do , great . So I just kind of like this is kind of nonsense . I tried to , I didn't even try to believe it , I didn't even try to like force myself to understand . It was just at face value , was like oh well , that the flood or Adam and Eve or that stuff is clearly ridiculous . Like even as a kid thought that .

Speaker 3 9:21

So it wasn't necessarily the existence of God . It was the way that , how he was expressed by others and how that people saw him in the Bible I thought was ridiculous .

Speaker 1 9:34

Got it , got it . So six or seven when we go to church , not really buying into it , so you're , and then your family stopped , stopped going all together , like was there something that happened or was just like we're just done .

Speaker 3 9:49

I think we were just born and saw very little value in it .

Speaker 1 9:55

And .

Speaker 3 9:56

I think that my mom kind of had some baggage from her past with the Christians and just I think she was a little tentative and a little hesitant about introducing us to religion and I think because she didn't believe in herself , she didn't read the Bible herself and my dad didn't read the Bible . It was like , why are we doing this ? I think they just did that because they felt like they had to do that , like , oh , this is right , the good person does , the person who goes and does this , and that facade like that only lasts for so long .

Speaker 1 10:32

Yeah , it's interesting to say that because I think a lot of people like our parents' generations , like that's like you my dad said it on his episode like when you have kids , when you're our parents' generation , you go to church , like that's where you find your sense of community . So I mean , maybe there's something along those lines .

Speaker 3 10:48

Yeah , you know , if no one , my parents . I think maybe they tried to instill that a little bit , but my parents are not community-minded people . The Queens are sort of how do I say this politely ? We're kind of narcissistic and egocentric . So Okay . I love them , the death okay , so .

Speaker 1 11:11

I'm one of them .

Speaker 3 11:11

I can say that I can say that about ourselves . So the idea of like being in a community we don't give a rat's ass about that kind of .

Speaker 2 11:19

Thing .

Speaker 3 11:20

Not that we're anti-community , but it's not like in the forefront of our mind . Hey , how do I be a good neighbor ?

Speaker 1 11:28

Yeah , it strikes me I've just thought of this question . So the town that we grew up in , obviously it's extremely small . There's a bunch of different churches and it felt like most people went to church , like where a lot of your friends going to church , like where most of them , and like did you feel different than , or was it just like just people just had different ?

Speaker 3 11:51

experiences . No , my best friends growing up were not religious , except for one of my best friends was Jewish .

Speaker 3 11:59

Oh cool , yeah , so he was , and he was smart . He was a really smart guy and he never talked about his faith . The only thing I remember about that guy is him having a picture of Hitler on his dartboard . So I just had like 10 years old , so that's all really the only thing I ever really remember . And then him teaching us about like Passover and stuff . But no , all of my friends were not religious . They were I actually . One of them was an atheist at a young age . Yeah , none of that .

Speaker 1 12:31

Which I think is cool too , because I think , like my experience was like I had this thing that I had to believe in as a kid . And if you didn't believe that , like I probably didn't even know what I was doing at the time , but the way that would process was being oh , like you're not , that you're less than it's , like you don't believe , like you don't get it , like you don't believe this thing . That like obviously is true . But if you don't have that , maybe you're open to different experiences , like having an atheist friend , having a Jewish friend , like that's interesting . I mean , that's kind of a cool way to go about life .

Speaker 3 13:06

Yeah , well , I remember thinking specifically about Christians and Catholics that it was like I kind of just thought it was obvious to people that this was bullshit , and I thought it was obvious to people that like , but respectfully , I thought it was obvious to people like , I thought it was just something that did , almost to kind of be a good little boy , and I was like , well , that's fine .

Speaker 3 13:36

That's what your mom makes you do and you know , whatever , I don't care . But I always thought , like the person I was talking , like if I was talking to you , I'd be like oh well , he knows in the back of his head that this is nonsense .

Speaker 2 13:49

Like , but I didn't mean to air him . Yeah , you didn't . So you're actually believed that .

Speaker 3 13:54

See , I assume that people just had that mindset .

Speaker 1 13:58

But see , that's interesting . That's interesting . Like that you assume people have like the bullshit meter for a lack of a better word and like not to say that it's true or not , like I don't know , but like at the time I remember being like I don't know , like it's that's so different perspectives between the two of us , and like how we grew up . That's really cool . So what happens in like high school after high school , like where you did you think about faith ? Were you thinking about spirituality , like , or was it just something that came later ?

Speaker 3 14:31

Yeah . So when I was 17 , maybe I became obsessive with thoughts Like , probably if I were to go to psychiatrists they'd probably tell me I had obsessive convulsive disorder .

Speaker 2 14:47

Most likely .

Speaker 3 14:49

So I became obsessive with thoughts and one of those thoughts was the purpose of stuff and what is the purpose , why ? And when I was around 17 or 18 , I remember listening to Richard Dawkins , christopher Hitchens , daniel Dent you know Keenan Turner's talked about them , the Four Horsemen .

Speaker 1 15:16

Oh yeah .

Speaker 3 15:17

Yeah , and I'm sure you've heard them , Bertrand Russell , a bunch of atheists . Just like hearing these people talk and I'm like , oh wow , we like think very similarly . But I've never considered like labeling myself something . I've never been like , hey , I'm for sure this you know , because I never cared , I was just messing around throwing stuff in houses or whatever .

Speaker 3 15:45

So I'd be , I identified with Richard Dawkins and these guys basically giving me permission to reject prex , giving me permission to reject the idea of God . I was like , and it was like a big weight off my shoulder at all I didn't even realize I was carrying that load .

Speaker 3 16:05

Okay , yeah , there is no God and I became quite expressive about it and I used to pick fights with it all the time . I was not a pleasant person . I still sometimes I'm not okay . I would pick fights , I would .

Speaker 3 16:24

In college I was like the atheist guy that I would have debates with people and people would invite me to go talk to them about atheism , versus why God doesn't exist or does exist , and it created quite a reputation and became the atheist that many Christians or other religious people talk about , which is the . They use a specific word like a staunch , like a , like a like I got a bone to pick type of atheism . I became that like fully embodied in from senior year until probably 24 , 23, .

Speaker 3 17:10

Read everything within reason , obsessed with the idea of nothingness , obsessed with the idea of nihilism and fatalism and determinism , believed there was no purpose , but at the same time I wanted to feel good . I wanted to feel good and so I would practice things like meditation , walking meditation . I would learn from different , not in person , but I would learn about different Buddhist practice of walking meditation and sitting and breathing meditation and imagery meditation . Had some had some really good emotional breakthroughs in my life with those types of things . So yeah , that's from senior year to about 24 . I was quite a pissed off atheism . Not at God , not at God at people .

Speaker 1 18:08

You're not mad at God because , as an atheist , god can't exist , right ? So how can you mad at something that doesn't exist ? So you mad at the people for believing this fake thing .

Speaker 3 18:21

I think I got convinced by Richard Dawkins and other these very influential , intelligent I would say . They're more than anything . They're rhetoricians . They're really good at just like convincing Not necessarily the best logical thinkers . They're better logical thinkers than me , I'm not saying that but compared to other philosophers or scientists , and I think I just got sort of bombarded by the religious that I just put in my brain and didn't even realize I was operating under and just became convinced that anything religious was bad for the world and that if you believe if you didn't believe in letting gay people get married , you were just a .

Speaker 3 19:12

You were just a backwards hillbilly moron and might as well , just get rid of this kind of person . And I carried that everywhere I went and I became quite antagonistic .

Speaker 1 19:28

What about ? So ? I feel like . So my buddy , scott Brasier , came on like he used to be an atheist and he's gone in the opposite direction . He was more quiet about it , like he didn't want anybody to know that he was an atheist . I think it's partly because Catholic upbringing what about it like ? Made you want to debate people . Was it like how could you be so dumb that you can't see ? Or like what was the mindset ?

Speaker 3 20:01

I think it was some of that . I think , more than anything , I felt like I had something to do , my life had some sort of purpose . It was like oh , I'm bored , I guess I'll go pick a fight with somebody . It means something concrete . Oh , I embarrassed that person and showed them how dumb they are with their idea . I went to success . Move on , who's my next victim ? That was the mindset for sure . Yeah .

Speaker 1 20:29

It's like dunking on Twitter or dunking on a person on Twitter . Yes , exactly .

Speaker 3 20:35

Yeah , and I used to get a real kick out of cornering At least philosophically Cornering people who weren't ready for it Sure .

Speaker 1 20:49

What do you think about that now ? Like looking back on who . You're obviously a very different person now , but when you think about that , what are your thoughts ?

Speaker 3 21:00

My thoughts . Have you seen the movie Billy Madison ? Yeah , okay , you know the scene where I think Billy is in high school and he's kind of been picked on a couple times and he's trying to be cool . He pulls up in his trans and he's got that coat on , he's playing loud music and like leaning up against his car , trying to look like Fonzie , like a tough guy . Yeah , that's what I think I was doing and I think and I'll speak .

Speaker 3 21:31

So another thing I do to try and understand the world and I'm admitting this openly I project , I openly project . I've experienced this . Therefore , you've probably experienced the same thing . I do that deliberately because , one , I've been right a lot with that and two , if I'm wrong , I'll just know immediately and oh okay , we'll throw that out . So I believe a lot of atheists are that guy that , hey , I'm the rebel leaning up against the trans and playing loud music . Aren't I a tough guy ? I was definitely that . I'm assuming other men were that same person . So I didn't even answer your question . I don't even know . I'm sorry , okay .

Speaker 2 22:17

Okay , okay .

Speaker 1 22:27

It did , it did . No , it did , nailed it .

Transcendentalism and the Search for Purpose

Speaker 1 22:33

So you also mentioned that the like , the belief at that time , and obviously like we're talking about Shay , is , as an 18 year old kid , right , like you don't even have like a fully formed brain unit at that point . But Like what if there was no purpose ? As an atheist at that time , like you mentioned , that the argument was kind of the purpose in itself . But like what ? What was it all about ? Like , were you interested in the universe ? And like things beyond earth ? We interested in nature ? Like what , what ? What gave it purpose ?

Speaker 3 23:05

so the the driving force behind that was I was depressed and angry and I thought by and at the time I wasn't aware of this . Okay , but upon reflection I see that's where I was . I was depressed and angry and I thought I could be like help stuff by by ridding this disease as much as I could and .

Speaker 3 23:34

And then so what ? Because being an asshole does it make you happy . I decided that you know what I'm gonna . I'm gonna obsess about nature and I and I Learn transcendentalism , which isn't really anything is . There's really no practice to it , it's more of just Putting your , your spiritual health , in the hands of something inanimate like and when I say inanimate I Guess I just mean non-human a trees , mountains , butterflies , whatever , and I used to journal about that stuff . I was quite an eccentric guy . I used to be able to tell what time it was based on what birds were calling I . I Wow , yeah , like just wild shit , and became a minimalist . In my apartment I had literally less than a hundred items , including like paper clips and pencils Became a hermit , rejected people outright unless they Somehow I felt some sort of natural inclination towards that person immediately was mad at you , immediately didn't like you and thought you didn't have anything to offer . Quite a rough Mindset towards human beings , which I wasn't that yeah for 17 and 18 .

Speaker 3 25:02

I was quite the opposite . I was quite a friendly , happy-go-lucky guy so trans transcendentalism is you mentioned .

Speaker 1 25:09

It's , it's putting you said , putting faith in and in like an inanimate object .

Speaker 3 25:15

Desire described it , I think it's , if I would describe it in my experience . It's not necessarily faith , it's it's . I'm gonna . I'm gonna reflect upon myself and my experience as a broken human being and See what I can see while looking at a herb or listening to lotion ways . What am I being told in my subconscious while experiencing a hike ? What am I being told in my subconscious by when I am sweating and nervous about , you know , camping where there's bears ? That's my best impression of what my experience of a transcendentalism is . So I was influenced by Henry David , throw John Muir , ralph Waldo Emerson , those types of guys , and really , there's really no rules to it . It's just what are your thoughts on nature and when you have those thoughts , it tells you about your soul . It's like a mirror .

Speaker 1 26:18

Hmm , yeah , that's fascinating because it it's kind of the opposite of meditation , where you're trying to clear your mind . This seems like the opposite of that , where you might have some of the meditation in the form of , like relaxation from a waterfall or whatever Wait , how are you how you phrase it ? But you're also trying to receive information about yourself Through the use of , like something else like that . Yes , that's very , very interesting , yep , and what happens is it doesn't work it .

Speaker 3 26:53

It Cuz . Honestly .

Speaker 3 26:55

What happens is you think , oh wow , how beautiful the grand canyon , or a grizzly bear or whatever , and , and you look at these things and then you go , wow , that thing doesn't give a shit about me and in fact , that thing would slaughter me if they had the opportunity . And in fact , I can't even relate to that thing and I have all these problems . How can this thing help me ? It can't , but , but you'll again speaking my experience and I project how can I expect this thing to do that ? There's nothing about it that is here for me . There's nothing about it that I can relate to . All I'm trying to do is convince myself that .

Speaker 3 27:40

I don't need people , that I don't need the love from people and I can just go , continue to be a hermit and be a mentalist and listen to birds and be and press people by telling them what time it is because a car won't whistle . That's crazy shit .

Speaker 1 27:58

That's kind of cool . It's kind of cool too , I mean , honestly , like that's , that's like I mean that's the beginning of a , of a movie or something . Man , the the type of journey that we haven't even gotten to the end part yet so far . It's not . It's a very interesting journey it's . I know that it's your , your life , and that maybe you have . It sounds like you have some regrets . Maybe I'm projecting on that , but like yet I find it fascinating , man , because I've never , I would never in a million years , decide to become a minimalist . I would never in a million years become a hermit . I really like my creature comforts , like I like a hot shower , I like to have the TV on and like sit on a couch and stuff . Like I couldn't ever do that , but you did it . Like that's , I don't know , seems like an accomplishment to me .

Speaker 3 28:46

I mean I I being a narcissistic person that I can be . I think that's the whole point is that you start to feel proud of yourself Because you don't take the top shots and because you don't have things , and because you start to feel a little bit arrogant about it , and that's why I'm saying it doesn't work . I don't think we're . I don't think as humans , we are bread . Thinking of dogs , we are bread All right to to like carry a religious burden like that without turning into a complete asshole . I don't think we can do it .

Speaker 3 29:22

I think we just , at least I can't , I can't do it without , without just being completely Like not liveable to be around . So so I appreciate the compliment , but I know better sure , yeah , that's fair .

Speaker 1 29:39

That's fair . You know your own self , do you ? Did you recognize the time that , that you weren't happy ?

Speaker 3 29:46

Oh yeah , and that's where that's full . There was a moment where I recognized that I Remember sitting in my kitchen . I think I was around 24 . I might have been Dating my wife current wife at the time , where I might have been just married . Just miserable , like just sitting in a kitchen , miserable , and I'm thinking to myself . All I said myself was why in the world am I this miserable ? Like I ? I'm an able-bodied person like I have every excuse to just be elated .

Speaker 3 30:19

And I remember , similar to Scott Brazier it wasn't a voice , it was , it was kind of a voice . It might have been a voice , I don't know how to describe it . Without even asking this person Deliberately , I got an answer and it was well , you're miserable because you don't believe in me . I said , oh shit , and I remember I wanted to run . It's like , act like that didn't happen , act like that wasn't . It just thought it was in your head . And I said you know what ? You're a miserable human being . What's the worst that's gonna happen ? You explore what the heck that experience was . You've explored everything else , what you're To , you're too cool and to whatever , to explore the idea of a personal God . So then I did , and that's where stuff just just snowballed and that's the second half of my life so far . That's it's been wild since , but yeah what I mean .

Speaker 1 31:24

So it sounds like you were scared almost at once . I mean what ? What's the first reaction outside of run ?

Speaker 3 31:31

I don't want accountability If . If God is real , that means he's seen my life and I'm not proud of it and I'm not proud of the way I've treated people and I'm not . So that's , I think , why I wanted to run like . If there's a God , I immediately knew , well , he's better than me . So If he's better than me , that means and he , he knows better and knows the garbage you have done in my life . And I Didn't want . I don't want him to be real , because then that makes me accountable to my actions . I'd rather there be nothingness and Know that my actions don't really matter , so then I can just sleep at night .

Speaker 1 32:18

Sure is , is your wife religious , or was she religious at the time like the head you guys talked about that ?

Speaker 3 32:26

Yeah , so she was , I think she grew up in a Methodist church and then eventually non-denominational Eastern church . That was a condition of her . He's like hey , you have , if you don't , if you're not Christian , I won't marry you . And I felt so hard in love with this woman that , just like I've done with all my other practices and or ideologies , I just crammed it in there . I crammed that I ideology into my head to the point where I couldn't get rid of it . So I told her yeah , I'm a Christian . I said because this is what my thought was okay , you're an atheist ? Huh , well , if there's no point to life , then you can just make up your own rules Then .

Speaker 3 33:09

So I made up the rule that , well , it doesn't matter , god doesn't exist , so I might as well pretend like he does . And that's what I did . I just pretended like I or tried to do . Obviously , you can't really fully do that when you don't believe that and then I said , yeah , jesus is cool , I believe it , whatever this and that . And then eventually the truth came out and we were in our first year of marriage and I was just like man , I don't believe this , I don't believe in the monster that you claim to whatever . This and that , almost like a therapy session and my wife and yeah we .

Speaker 3 33:44

that was rough , that was a really tough time because she she was a very , very passionate about Jesus and still is .

Speaker 1 33:54

Yeah that I mean that's . That's got to be tough . I mean because I mean differing religions . Unless you talk about it like it's , it can be a shocker man like . So what was her reaction to that ?

Speaker 3 34:07

When my wife is upset , she goes into herself , gets very quiet , bears it and Then just continues on and she just tried her best to be good wife , despite what situation I put herself .

Speaker 1 34:25

There's no what's what's , what's the time frame between ? Like you like that , that conversation of like hey , by the way , like I've been faking it To you , hearing that voice , like what was the time period in between ? So ?

Speaker 3 34:40

that the in faking it's not really the right . I know you're just , I'm just I'm kind of be semantic sometimes . Sure it's not really faking it , because I Tried and I like crammed it in there . Maybe it was more like it didn't work that's more of how I would put it . So it didn't work .

Speaker 1 35:01

So that happened . Round peg in a square hole .

Speaker 3 35:03

Yes , yes , that happened before , when I was me sitting at my kitchen table saying why the hell am I so impressed ? So I told her hey , this isn't working , I don't believe this stuff . And then a month or a year later I had that reconciliation by myself in a kitchen . So Did .

Speaker 1 35:26

What was her reaction to that then ? Like , did you guys talk about that ?

Speaker 3 35:29

Yeah , I didn't . When I told her my experience , she believed me and and she was very happy and I Wanted to honors . What was odd though . What was odd about it is that when I had that experience , my first reaction was who is Jesus ? Hmm , I never cared about Jesus . Jesus was an object of antagonism and I wanted to fight the idea of Jesus . When I had that , then very next thought was who is Jesus ? Who cares about this guy ? Why him , why this guy ? And then I sort of went head first into religiosity of Protestantism , non-denomination stuff , bible , bible learning , stuff like that . And she was very happy about that because that's the man she wanted a man .

Speaker 1 36:28

Then what like ? So you hear this voice , you have a conversation with your wife . You are coming from this place of like Nothing , nothing matters , nothing exists other than much , myself , essentially to . Oh shit , some something is talking to me that might give me a bigger purpose in life , like what do you do with that ?

Speaker 3 36:50

Yeah . So I did the wrong thing , which is trusting I Was . I was like man . I've been so miserable in my life . I started rejecting my my own intellectual and emotional instincts Because I was like man . I've been wrong my whole life . So I just started throwing everything I knew out out the window . And what I did is I ran to people that claimed they had answers in the name of Jesus . And you know , this is an . I'm not gonna try . I'm gonna try to make none of this personal . It's not against anybody in specific , okay , but oftentimes it can sound like it . So I ran to Other people's idea of who Jesus is , other people's idea of what the Bible means , and I just soaked it up . I just soaked up every philosopher , christian philosophers , idea on the Bible , on Christ , on Divinity , all that good stuff , and I Became the asshole . I once was as an atheist and became a Pharisee . I took that same mindset and just inserted Jesus and I didn't even realize .

Speaker 3 38:05

I did it , I didn't realize I did .

Speaker 1 38:07

It's like a swapping of of ideal , like you're very clearly looking for something right , like something something's missing , and we're just swapping Ideologies . At that point it sounds like so how did you get out of that point where you start to think for yourself again ?

Speaker 3 38:23

Same type of conversation . Hey , my dad helped me with that because I was such a miserable son . We're talking , I don't know . We physical fights Like cussing my dad out , just the worst something at this time . Okay , all in the name of Jesus . Okay , and I'm not saying other Christians do this , but I had another sit down with myself . Okay , you believe in the greatest thing that's ever happened to reality . If you believe this , why are you such a jerk ? Why are you so mean ? Why are you so angry ? And that's another whole thing that happened to me

Exploring Beliefs and Perspectives on Religion

Speaker 3 39:15

. Where I go , oh , I'm not actually reading this thing for myself , I'm actually , and that has been freeing a lot of ways .

Speaker 1 39:27

Yeah , I don't even know . Oh , that's , that's such a heavy thing , man , to like I . It's like you're almost having to like give up control in a way , while also Trying to make sense of everything so that you're not just like right download . I believe that now .

Speaker 3 39:46

Yep , that's exactly what I became a Calvinist , which Calvinism is a man that . So I believe that most religious people are Gnostics , and Gnostics are people that believe that the way to truth is through knowledge of something . Most , actually , non-religious people are Gnostics , which is why you often hear people compare science versus religion . That's a . That's a knowledge battle . That's a . Oh . Where did we come from ? Why are we here ? What is this compound do with this compound ? Why does , why does things exist ? Why do they not ? Those are all knowledge things . What happens with Calvinism is that they get really good at claiming knowledge and Claiming an ideology in a system and get really good at reinforcing that system with knowledge of the Bible , with knowledge of their own ideology . And I became a mean Calvinist .

Speaker 3 40:52

Calvinism is the idea that , if I could boil it down to one thing , it's this that God created everything . God created humans . God created people Without the will to choose heaven or hell . So God will literally create a human for the purpose of destruction effort like eternal , eternal destruction and Our God will create a person for the purpose of eternal life . And I , I I believed that for a long time and it had a real toll on my mental health . Yeah , seeing seeing my brother Like the person that I love more than just about anybody . How do I reconcile my loving God just completely , just Removing his entire existence as a human ? How can , how can I sit here and enjoy my life and be a loving person while I'm watching one of my favorite people Get sent to hell eventually ? I Couldn't reconcile it .

Speaker 1 42:09

That's heavy , that's super heavy , so when it's almost like there's a sense . So when we're an atheist there's a sense of like what's , what does it matter ? But we find ourselves right back at that conversation , like what does it all matter ? If you know , we're gonna get sent to hell anyway .

Speaker 3 42:30

Yep , and I couldn't . Luckily , the Bible doesn't say any of that stuff . And this is the actual bone I have to pick about religious people and non-religious people , about the Bible . People do not know the Bible . I'm an obsessive person okay , this is an exaggeration . I used to study the Bible four hours a day and I used to scour that thing like my life depended on it , and that's not a brag , but there things happen when you commit that kind of energy to something . And what happened was I realized that nobody reads the Bible right , not that I do , I'm not saying I'm like King Bible guy , but I have a completely different King .

Speaker 3 43:24

Shea Bible . Nobody reads it right . They get their definitions wrong , they get their terminology wrong , and that matters when reading information and Christians in general like to act like it doesn't . And also , the type of Jesus that non-Christians are rejecting is a Jesus you should reject . It's a Jesus not worth following . It's a God not worth liking . But the good news is , if you read the Bible with a different lens and I'm not saying delude yourself and I'm not saying fool yourself . I've done that , tried to do that it doesn't work . But if you read the Bible for yourself , ask the stuff like well , what does it actually mean to be saved ? What does eternal life mean ? What is hell ? What is heaven ? And I can tell you this that's not what we say . It is based on what the Bible says and that's why everyone's so confused about it .

Speaker 1 44:34

So where does that leave you now ? Like you've run the gamut in a lot of different beliefs and it sounds like even like working on your mental health at the same time . Like where does that leave you today ? We talked at the beginning of the show . We talked about how you believe in God , you pray , do you identify as a Christian ? Do you go to church or is it just trying to make sense of it through the Bible ?

Speaker 3 45:03

I am not a Christian , because I believe that's one of those words that people misunderstand . I believe there are no Christians that exist today . Christians are particular people . In the time of Paul , at Antioch , Christians are very specific , like disciples and apostles and actual physical followers of Christ . Christ , that's a Christian . Now , does a Christian believe that Christ is the Messiah ? Yes , but a non-Christian can believe that . The same , what seems the same thing can believe the same stuff . So I am not a Christian . My mother-in-law is not a Christian . They call themselves that , but they're mistaken . They're not . So I am . This is what I am . I'm a barbarian that once saw the world one way , as a barbarian sees it , and now I see it as something that can be beautiful because God can fix it , and we are broken humans and we have no choice in any of this . That God is going to fix it all , whether you like it or not . That's interesting . That's where I'm at now . I'm not a Christian , but I do believe in Christ .

Speaker 1 46:26

See , that's the hard part . I think that a lot of people aren't going to be able to square and , like you said , you're big on words and syntax and words matter and for you we're making a very big line in the sand , based on the period of history , of why Christians are called Christians . But a lot of people would just say I believe in Christ , I believe in Jesus . That makes me a Christian . That's going to be difficult for people to understand . I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it , but it makes sense , having not done the work that you've done . I'm not Wulverst in the Bible . I'm not Wulverst in a lot of different things from a religious perspective , but it's just interesting , man . I've never heard this perspective before and I find it fascinating .

Speaker 3 47:19

So I believe , miles , you're a barbarian and if you're going to relate to God , the best way you're going to be able to relate to him is as a king and as a warrior . If you are Jewish , the best way you're going to be able to relate to God is as a priest and a healer , and that's how I relate to God . I relate to God as somebody I can kick ass with in a good way , and that's a barbarian .

Speaker 1 47:51

So when you say barbarian , are you thinking about different levels of people , so like if you're a warrior , you're above what a barbarian is ? Are they the ?

Speaker 3 48:01

same . It has nothing to do with levels , as more to do with how you are raised in your culture . So I'm a barbarian , I'm not a Jew . A Jew has a completely different understanding of what certain words mean , why you say those words , how to relate to the concept of salvation , how to relate to the concept of healing .

Speaker 3 48:26

The reason why another reason why we struggle with the Bible is because we're reading a book written by Jews and none of us are Jewish . Not none of us . A lot of us are not Jewish . So we're trying to take our barbarian mindset and read a book written by Jews that they speak in a completely different way than we do , and so you're going to completely misunderstand it . So if I think about God , I think , oh , he's a guy that's got this sort of righteousness and he's a warrior and he's going to feed us and he's my leader and he's my Lord , all that stuff . Again , if I'm a Jew , maybe there's some of that , but it's a much different . There's a lot more priest stuff involved in the idea of God with Jews . So it's nothing to do with status , but everything to do with culture .

Speaker 1 49:18

Got it . Okay . This is a perspective I've never heard before , and this is why I do this shit . Man , this is awesome , sure . So you and your wife , do you guys have children ?

Speaker 3 49:30

Yes , we have a son named Abram and a daughter named Georgia .

Speaker 1 49:35

So a question I always asked to parents is like what do you do with religion with them ? Like how do you talk about it , how do you teach it ?

Speaker 3 49:43

I don't teach , I express . I express what I think and I let him decide . Even though he's young and I know he's impressionable , I never give it God as a thing to be something to be learned or to be something to be conquered or to be something to make me feel good about him . I just express myself as honestly as I can to my son and I let the chips fall where they may and I don't teach him . I show him what I think and , for example , when I'll ask him , hey , do you want to pray ? And oftentimes he says no , I say yeah , I don't really blame you . Praying is kind of boring , but I don't go . Hey , it's dinner time , this is our time to pray . That's religion . Sure , I'm not interested in teaching religion . I'm interested in teaching a man that knows how to navigate himself emotionally and spiritually .

Speaker 1 50:49

I like that . I like that Just less of the rigid structure that might come in when I was growing up like , look , you prayed before your meal . That's just what you did . You didn't think about it . So I like the idea of giving the tools you know if they're young and let them , kind of you know , figure it out along the way , because that's how you did it , that's how I did it .

Speaker 3 51:13

Well , you have . When I was here and you , I'm struck by your humility . You seem like you don't show your race . I can tell you you've got a lot going on up there and you're very humble and you act like and I might . When I say act , I don't mean disingenuously , I just mean you engage in this stuff in a way that is honorable , because I can tell you have a lot you would want to say and want to push back on , or for better or for worse . But that's really cool the way you're doing it .

Speaker 1 51:52

No , I appreciate that . Yeah , I really really appreciate that . You have no idea how much that means , and it is funny you talk about that because , I mean , most of my friends would describe me as argumentative , and so when I talked about doing this podcast yeah , absolutely , when I talked about doing this podcast , I think a lot of their fears is like oh , miles is going to talk the whole time , and it's like a new skill that I'm building almost as I go about this project of like , all right , you are the blank slate when you're talking , when Shay's talking to me , I'm the blank slate , teach me , and I'm going to have questions . What's funny , though , is that my wife and I are going to have an episode where , like , I share actually what I believe in my thoughts . So that's when I'm going to go off the rails , probably , and just let it all out there . But I really really appreciate that . Yeah , that really means a lot .

Speaker 3 52:42

It's been a good work , of course , of course . Yeah , it doesn't go unnoticed . I appreciate that .

Speaker 1 52:49

Well , shay , this has been awesome , man . I have learned a lot of a lot to think about too . Like I said , it's just a perspective that you don't normally get . I mean a lot like we've if you were listening to the other episodes like a lot of people have a very , very different journey , but also similar in the same path where , like , you start one way and you end some way , and that's kind of where you're at too . But the minutia in the middle is always what's interesting , and your middle is fascinating and I just appreciate you sharing your story .

Speaker 3 53:21

Well , of course , and I appreciate you letting me come on , because it helps me to be able to express and be able to refine how I express , which I think is important- yeah , it's not .

Speaker 1 53:35

Yeah , it's not every day where you get to have like a platform you know for , for example , like back when you were , you know , having conversations when you're an atheist , like you're , there's a back and forth , right , there's a debate , and there's not really a time where you can just be like , hey , this is what I believe and this is why take it or leave it , but this is this , is it ? So I'm glad that you find that helpful too . But all the best to you and the family man , Two kiddos . Good luck with those . I'll be following you guys on on Instagram watching your dog videos . Maybe I'll try to take something with me and teach my dumb ass to some stuff . Yeah , if you go , man , just have fun with it . That's , that's the biggest thing , that's , that's the key , right , that's the key . All right , Jay , we'll talk soon . But yeah , thanks , Miles . Thanks again to Shea for coming on . That was a super awesome conversation .

Speaker 1 54:26

Now let's hear a sneak peek of next week's episode with author Christina Ward . Christina Ward is joining me . She has a book that's called Holy Food how Colts , Communes and Religious Movements Influenced what we Eat in American History . I have we talked earlier when , before we started recording . I haven't had the chance to read yet , but I'm so excited to dig into it . Christina , how are you doing ?

Speaker 2 54:50

I am very well on this cold Wisconsin day .

Speaker 1 54:54

Yeah , we were talking about we got to got to toughen ourselves up for the winner . So either one of us has our heat on as of yet we're just bundling up and making it work . Love it , love it Well again . Thank you so much for for setting some time aside to talk here .

Exploring Faith and Religion

Speaker 1 55:12

I'm excited to hear more about this book , but kind of where I always start on these podcasts is you know what ? What is your faith and and religion at this point in your life ?

Speaker 2 55:22

So I was so interested in speaking with you because I am atheist . Now , if you notice how I said it , I said atheist , not an atheist , because what atheism mean is without God . That's so I am without God . Of course , as an American , as so many of us grow up me growing up in the 70s and 80s is there is a tradition of growing up with some sort of cultural religion . In my family . My mother was Catholic , roman Catholic , and I went to actually Catholic schools for a few years , but my father was I guess the proper term would be agnostic . They are very old Americans and what I mean by that is I can trace my paternal roots back to the 1600s and doing a lot of that research .

Speaker 1 56:13

That's next time I'm finding my religion .