Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
Shea Quinn: "A Faith Journey"
Ever pondered the intriguing complexities of faith and religion? This episode, we're privileged to host Shay Quinn, a dog trainer and hunting guide whose unique spiritual journey will challenge your perspectives. From early skepticism of traditional religious narratives to a profound connection with nature, and finally, a deep personal faith, Shay's story is a testament to the dynamic nature of spiritual growth.
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myles@findingmyreligionpod.com
Welcome to Finding my Religion. My name is Miles Phelps. Before we get to this next guest, I got to say a couple of things. First, thank you so much for listening thus far. It's been awesome to see the feedback for season two and I can't wait to show you guys what we have in store. Second, if you haven't told any of your friends about this podcast, that is the best way for us to get new listeners, so please do that. Lastly, if you haven't already I know I've asked a lot, but if you haven't, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast, and that's how we can reach people that we don't know. And with that, let's hear what Shay has to say. Alright, we are back. Another one of these guests. Man, People just keep reaching out. It's been awesome to see the feedback for season two. Shay Quinn is joining me. Shay and I went to the same high school. We know a lot of the same people out in Sycamore where we are both from. But, Shay, how are you doing, man?
Speaker 3:Doing very well. Life is good. I'm a lucky guy.
Speaker 1:So you had reached out to me on Instagram and I actually wanted to ask you. So you're doing dog training. Is that kind of what the page is about? Like talking about that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so I am really bad with social media. So my social media for Instagram is really mostly for my clients, so that they can watch the progress of their dog and just make little clips of their dog. I used to try to do other stuff with it, with my work, but I just found I wasn't very good at it, so I'm just keeping it simple. But the page itself is more like hey, I'm going to put this Instagram live on and I'll save it on my feed, so then if my client wants to watch later how their dog's doing, I can. So yeah, I'm a dog trader.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'm a dog trader full time and then I also am a hunting guide. I guide, visit and do some.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I never got into hunting but I appreciate people that can do it. We have. We have two dogs we have. They're both kind of like hound type dogs. One is a train walker, coon hound, and he is just the dumbest dog so he's smart when he like. You obviously have to spend time with him, as you know. But yeah, he's got like two trees in the backyard where you open the door and he just sprints right to it and he would just sit there for like an hour and a half and just wait, wait for that squirrel to come down the tree.
Speaker 3:Yep, I always. I tell people whenever they're thinking about getting a hound and say, well, no, don't get one, because they are close. They are the closest thing to a wild animal in a dog that we have. So if you want a good time raising your dog not you, not that you can't have a dog you like, but just go get your Maltese. Go get that thing, because that thing was bred to be raised by hillbillies killing raccoons, you know, and race.
Speaker 1:People aren't doing that, right. Yeah, the kill count for these two guys is pretty high and now that we have our own house, like they, they got a baby raccoon the couple months ago and that was super traumatic Just stuff I never was really prepared for. But you live in your home and you're just a dog, so I'm just gonna go get a dog. So I'm just gonna go get a dog.
Speaker 3:Okay, so let's see if I can learn.
Speaker 1:He's, he's a good dog, but, yeah, we might have to reach out to you and just just look him into shape here for a second.
Speaker 3:What's, what's your? What's your Instagram handle, by the way, for dog training? I think it's. Just let me pull it up. I think it's a.
Speaker 1:See this how bad I might not be in the sick morning but well, if you're well, if you're in the area of Sycamore, DeKalb and you need a dog trainer, hit my man, Shay, up. So let's talk about religion. You reached out and said that that you know you were very interested in having this conversation and again, I'm honored to be able to do this. So thank you for spending the time to do it. But what's what's your faith and what's your religion at this point in your life?
Speaker 3:That's what a cool question, because I don't really have a religion. It's. I see religion as and I think a lot of people see this religion as something Well, you know what? I probably have a religion, but I might not be aware of it. So I see religion as something that has to do with your habits and your practices, whether conscious or unconscious, and oftentimes religion is I'm going to do these rituals or these, have these habits in the name of my faith.
Speaker 3:So I probably do things out of habit that have to do with my faith that I'm not aware of, but I don't actively pursue practices on a daily basis. I'll pray occasionally. I'm not a big prayer but I will do it. I'll fast, but I'm not a religious or faithful faster. I do it more for like health benefits. But my faith I wouldn't really call it anything necessarily other than that I believe that God is real. I believe that he is. He is a being like a person, not like a person necessarily in a physical form, but he is identifiable as having a personality, and I believe that he is making everything better eventually.
Speaker 1:So like a personal God, like somebody that you can go to, to pray to? Is that kind of what your mindset is?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think he exists and he can hear me, so and he loves me and he loves you. So I think that that just kind of comes with the territory. If he's personal, which I believe that, and he's almost almost identified I don't really know how else to explain it other than almost identifiable as a human, almost If he's those things, then I'm able to talk to him and then, I'm able to confess things, I'm able to be worried about things, then I like that.
Speaker 1:So let's back up then. So I'm always interested in the journey. That's. That's kind of what my, my, were, my interest lie what, what did? How did you guys grow up? I mean, I'm used to be pretty close with your sister. I know you have a younger brother. Were you guys a religious family? Did you guys go to church? What was that like?
Speaker 3:No. So we went to a church when I was like six or seven for like one year and it was the Federated Church in Sycamore. I'm sure you remember, anyway, but we I remember as a kid just hearing these Bible stories and watching people doing stuff, and even as a young kid doing this ridiculous. How does anybody ever believe this? And then, but we stopped going and my family is not religious at all. They're, they're, they have. No, I think maybe some of them might pray occasionally, but not raised any sort of. I don't think I ever saw a Bible in the house and never saw a Quran in the house. Maybe I would see something about like meditation. My mom like reading it, but there's nothing. Was ever like, hey, you need to pray before dinner or make sure you go to confession this week.
Speaker 2:There's none of that.
Speaker 1:So six or seven, and you're having feelings about what you're being introduced to you, like what, what part of that seemed ridiculous to you. Was it the fact that there was a God? Or like, was it the stories you're hearing? Well, what memories do you have about that?
Speaker 3:So I remember as a kid that those questions fascinated me and they still do, but I think it was the way that the that these questions were answered is what sort of made me think it was ridiculous, Like the flood.
Speaker 1:Noah's.
Speaker 3:Ark, the flood, I think when it's presented to you, it's presented to you in a way as if you believe it or you don't, or this miracle, and if you don't believe it, too bad, if you do, great. So I just kind of like this is kind of nonsense. I tried to, I didn't even try to believe it, I didn't even try to like force myself to understand. It was just at face value, was like oh well, that the flood or Adam and Eve or that stuff is clearly ridiculous. Like even as a kid thought that.
Speaker 3:So it wasn't necessarily the existence of God. It was the way that, how he was expressed by others and how that people saw him in the Bible I thought was ridiculous.
Speaker 1:Got it, got it. So six or seven when we go to church, not really buying into it, so you're, and then your family stopped, stopped going all together, like was there something that happened or was just like we're just done.
Speaker 3:I think we were just born and saw very little value in it.
Speaker 1:And.
Speaker 3:I think that my mom kind of had some baggage from her past with the Christians and just I think she was a little tentative and a little hesitant about introducing us to religion and I think because she didn't believe in herself, she didn't read the Bible herself and my dad didn't read the Bible. It was like, why are we doing this? I think they just did that because they felt like they had to do that, like, oh, this is right, the good person does, the person who goes and does this, and that facade like that only lasts for so long.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's interesting to say that because I think a lot of people like our parents' generations, like that's like you my dad said it on his episode like when you have kids, when you're our parents' generation, you go to church, like that's where you find your sense of community. So I mean, maybe there's something along those lines.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, if no one, my parents. I think maybe they tried to instill that a little bit, but my parents are not community-minded people. The Queens are sort of how do I say this politely? We're kind of narcissistic and egocentric. So Okay. I love them, the death okay, so.
Speaker 1:I'm one of them.
Speaker 3:I can say that I can say that about ourselves. So the idea of like being in a community we don't give a rat's ass about that kind of.
Speaker 2:Thing.
Speaker 3:Not that we're anti-community, but it's not like in the forefront of our mind. Hey, how do I be a good neighbor?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it strikes me I've just thought of this question. So the town that we grew up in, obviously it's extremely small. There's a bunch of different churches and it felt like most people went to church, like where a lot of your friends going to church, like where most of them, and like did you feel different than, or was it just like just people just had different?
Speaker 3:experiences. No, my best friends growing up were not religious, except for one of my best friends was Jewish.
Speaker 3:Oh cool, yeah, so he was, and he was smart. He was a really smart guy and he never talked about his faith. The only thing I remember about that guy is him having a picture of Hitler on his dartboard. So I just had like 10 years old, so that's all really the only thing I ever really remember. And then him teaching us about like Passover and stuff. But no, all of my friends were not religious. They were I actually. One of them was an atheist at a young age. Yeah, none of that.
Speaker 1:Which I think is cool too, because I think, like my experience was like I had this thing that I had to believe in as a kid. And if you didn't believe that, like I probably didn't even know what I was doing at the time, but the way that would process was being oh, like you're not, that you're less than it's, like you don't believe, like you don't get it, like you don't believe this thing. That like obviously is true. But if you don't have that, maybe you're open to different experiences, like having an atheist friend, having a Jewish friend, like that's interesting. I mean, that's kind of a cool way to go about life.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I remember thinking specifically about Christians and Catholics that it was like I kind of just thought it was obvious to people that this was bullshit, and I thought it was obvious to people that like, but respectfully, I thought it was obvious to people like, I thought it was just something that did, almost to kind of be a good little boy, and I was like, well, that's fine.
Speaker 3:That's what your mom makes you do and you know, whatever, I don't care. But I always thought, like the person I was talking, like if I was talking to you, I'd be like oh well, he knows in the back of his head that this is nonsense.
Speaker 2:Like, but I didn't mean to air him. Yeah, you didn't. So you're actually believed that.
Speaker 3:See, I assume that people just had that mindset.
Speaker 1:But see, that's interesting. That's interesting. Like that you assume people have like the bullshit meter for a lack of a better word and like not to say that it's true or not, like I don't know, but like at the time I remember being like I don't know, like it's that's so different perspectives between the two of us, and like how we grew up. That's really cool. So what happens in like high school after high school, like where you did you think about faith? Were you thinking about spirituality, like, or was it just something that came later?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So when I was 17, maybe I became obsessive with thoughts Like, probably if I were to go to psychiatrists they'd probably tell me I had obsessive convulsive disorder.
Speaker 2:Most likely.
Speaker 3:So I became obsessive with thoughts and one of those thoughts was the purpose of stuff and what is the purpose, why? And when I was around 17 or 18, I remember listening to Richard Dawkins, christopher Hitchens, daniel Dent you know Keenan Turner's talked about them, the Four Horsemen.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I'm sure you've heard them, Bertrand Russell, a bunch of atheists. Just like hearing these people talk and I'm like, oh wow, we like think very similarly. But I've never considered like labeling myself something. I've never been like, hey, I'm for sure this you know, because I never cared, I was just messing around throwing stuff in houses or whatever.
Speaker 3:So I'd be, I identified with Richard Dawkins and these guys basically giving me permission to reject prex, giving me permission to reject the idea of God. I was like, and it was like a big weight off my shoulder at all I didn't even realize I was carrying that load.
Speaker 3:Okay, yeah, there is no God and I became quite expressive about it and I used to pick fights with it all the time. I was not a pleasant person. I still sometimes I'm not okay. I would pick fights, I would.
Speaker 3:In college I was like the atheist guy that I would have debates with people and people would invite me to go talk to them about atheism, versus why God doesn't exist or does exist, and it created quite a reputation and became the atheist that many Christians or other religious people talk about, which is the. They use a specific word like a staunch, like a, like a like I got a bone to pick type of atheism. I became that like fully embodied in from senior year until probably 24, 23,.
Speaker 3:Read everything within reason, obsessed with the idea of nothingness, obsessed with the idea of nihilism and fatalism and determinism, believed there was no purpose, but at the same time I wanted to feel good. I wanted to feel good and so I would practice things like meditation, walking meditation. I would learn from different, not in person, but I would learn about different Buddhist practice of walking meditation and sitting and breathing meditation and imagery meditation. Had some had some really good emotional breakthroughs in my life with those types of things. So yeah, that's from senior year to about 24. I was quite a pissed off atheism. Not at God, not at God at people.
Speaker 1:You're not mad at God because, as an atheist, god can't exist, right? So how can you mad at something that doesn't exist? So you mad at the people for believing this fake thing.
Speaker 3:I think I got convinced by Richard Dawkins and other these very influential, intelligent I would say. They're more than anything. They're rhetoricians. They're really good at just like convincing Not necessarily the best logical thinkers. They're better logical thinkers than me, I'm not saying that but compared to other philosophers or scientists, and I think I just got sort of bombarded by the religious that I just put in my brain and didn't even realize I was operating under and just became convinced that anything religious was bad for the world and that if you believe if you didn't believe in letting gay people get married, you were just a.
Speaker 3:You were just a backwards hillbilly moron and might as well, just get rid of this kind of person. And I carried that everywhere I went and I became quite antagonistic.
Speaker 1:What about? So? I feel like. So my buddy, scott Brasier, came on like he used to be an atheist and he's gone in the opposite direction. He was more quiet about it, like he didn't want anybody to know that he was an atheist. I think it's partly because Catholic upbringing what about it like? Made you want to debate people. Was it like how could you be so dumb that you can't see? Or like what was the mindset?
Speaker 3:I think it was some of that. I think, more than anything, I felt like I had something to do, my life had some sort of purpose. It was like oh, I'm bored, I guess I'll go pick a fight with somebody. It means something concrete. Oh, I embarrassed that person and showed them how dumb they are with their idea. I went to success. Move on, who's my next victim? That was the mindset for sure. Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like dunking on Twitter or dunking on a person on Twitter. Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I used to get a real kick out of cornering At least philosophically Cornering people who weren't ready for it Sure.
Speaker 1:What do you think about that now? Like looking back on who. You're obviously a very different person now, but when you think about that, what are your thoughts?
Speaker 3:My thoughts. Have you seen the movie Billy Madison? Yeah, okay, you know the scene where I think Billy is in high school and he's kind of been picked on a couple times and he's trying to be cool. He pulls up in his trans and he's got that coat on, he's playing loud music and like leaning up against his car, trying to look like Fonzie, like a tough guy. Yeah, that's what I think I was doing and I think and I'll speak.
Speaker 3:So another thing I do to try and understand the world and I'm admitting this openly I project, I openly project. I've experienced this. Therefore, you've probably experienced the same thing. I do that deliberately because, one, I've been right a lot with that and two, if I'm wrong, I'll just know immediately and oh okay, we'll throw that out. So I believe a lot of atheists are that guy that, hey, I'm the rebel leaning up against the trans and playing loud music. Aren't I a tough guy? I was definitely that. I'm assuming other men were that same person. So I didn't even answer your question. I don't even know. I'm sorry, okay.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay.
Speaker 1:It did, it did. No, it did, nailed it. So you also mentioned that the like, the belief at that time, and obviously like we're talking about Shay, is, as an 18 year old kid, right, like you don't even have like a fully formed brain unit at that point. But Like what if there was no purpose? As an atheist at that time, like you mentioned, that the argument was kind of the purpose in itself. But like what? What was it all about? Like, were you interested in the universe? And like things beyond earth? We interested in nature? Like what, what? What gave it purpose?
Speaker 3:so the the driving force behind that was I was depressed and angry and I thought by and at the time I wasn't aware of this. Okay, but upon reflection I see that's where I was. I was depressed and angry and I thought I could be like help stuff by by ridding this disease as much as I could and.
Speaker 3:And then so what? Because being an asshole does it make you happy. I decided that you know what I'm gonna. I'm gonna obsess about nature and I and I Learn transcendentalism, which isn't really anything is. There's really no practice to it, it's more of just Putting your, your spiritual health, in the hands of something inanimate like and when I say inanimate I Guess I just mean non-human a trees, mountains, butterflies, whatever, and I used to journal about that stuff. I was quite an eccentric guy. I used to be able to tell what time it was based on what birds were calling I. I Wow, yeah, like just wild shit, and became a minimalist. In my apartment I had literally less than a hundred items, including like paper clips and pencils Became a hermit, rejected people outright unless they Somehow I felt some sort of natural inclination towards that person immediately was mad at you, immediately didn't like you and thought you didn't have anything to offer. Quite a rough Mindset towards human beings, which I wasn't that yeah for 17 and 18.
Speaker 3:I was quite the opposite. I was quite a friendly, happy-go-lucky guy so trans transcendentalism is you mentioned.
Speaker 1:It's, it's putting you said, putting faith in and in like an inanimate object.
Speaker 3:Desire described it, I think it's, if I would describe it in my experience. It's not necessarily faith, it's it's. I'm gonna. I'm gonna reflect upon myself and my experience as a broken human being and See what I can see while looking at a herb or listening to lotion ways. What am I being told in my subconscious while experiencing a hike? What am I being told in my subconscious by when I am sweating and nervous about, you know, camping where there's bears? That's my best impression of what my experience of a transcendentalism is. So I was influenced by Henry David, throw John Muir, ralph Waldo Emerson, those types of guys, and really, there's really no rules to it. It's just what are your thoughts on nature and when you have those thoughts, it tells you about your soul. It's like a mirror.
Speaker 1:Hmm, yeah, that's fascinating because it it's kind of the opposite of meditation, where you're trying to clear your mind. This seems like the opposite of that, where you might have some of the meditation in the form of, like relaxation from a waterfall or whatever Wait, how are you how you phrase it? But you're also trying to receive information about yourself Through the use of, like something else like that. Yes, that's very, very interesting, yep, and what happens is it doesn't work it.
Speaker 3:It Cuz. Honestly.
Speaker 3:What happens is you think, oh wow, how beautiful the grand canyon, or a grizzly bear or whatever, and, and you look at these things and then you go, wow, that thing doesn't give a shit about me and in fact, that thing would slaughter me if they had the opportunity. And in fact, I can't even relate to that thing and I have all these problems. How can this thing help me? It can't, but, but you'll again speaking my experience and I project how can I expect this thing to do that? There's nothing about it that is here for me. There's nothing about it that I can relate to. All I'm trying to do is convince myself that.
Speaker 3:I don't need people, that I don't need the love from people and I can just go, continue to be a hermit and be a mentalist and listen to birds and be and press people by telling them what time it is because a car won't whistle. That's crazy shit.
Speaker 1:That's kind of cool. It's kind of cool too, I mean, honestly, like that's, that's like I mean that's the beginning of a, of a movie or something. Man, the the type of journey that we haven't even gotten to the end part yet so far. It's not. It's a very interesting journey it's. I know that it's your, your life, and that maybe you have. It sounds like you have some regrets. Maybe I'm projecting on that, but like yet I find it fascinating, man, because I've never, I would never in a million years, decide to become a minimalist. I would never in a million years become a hermit. I really like my creature comforts, like I like a hot shower, I like to have the TV on and like sit on a couch and stuff. Like I couldn't ever do that, but you did it. Like that's, I don't know, seems like an accomplishment to me.
Speaker 3:I mean I I being a narcissistic person that I can be. I think that's the whole point is that you start to feel proud of yourself Because you don't take the top shots and because you don't have things, and because you start to feel a little bit arrogant about it, and that's why I'm saying it doesn't work. I don't think we're. I don't think as humans, we are bread. Thinking of dogs, we are bread All right to to like carry a religious burden like that without turning into a complete asshole. I don't think we can do it.
Speaker 3:I think we just, at least I can't, I can't do it without, without just being completely Like not liveable to be around. So so I appreciate the compliment, but I know better sure, yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 1:That's fair. You know your own self, do you? Did you recognize the time that, that you weren't happy?
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, and that's where that's full. There was a moment where I recognized that I Remember sitting in my kitchen. I think I was around 24. I might have been Dating my wife current wife at the time, where I might have been just married. Just miserable, like just sitting in a kitchen, miserable, and I'm thinking to myself. All I said myself was why in the world am I this miserable? Like I? I'm an able-bodied person like I have every excuse to just be elated.
Speaker 3:And I remember, similar to Scott Brazier it wasn't a voice, it was, it was kind of a voice. It might have been a voice, I don't know how to describe it. Without even asking this person Deliberately, I got an answer and it was well, you're miserable because you don't believe in me. I said, oh shit, and I remember I wanted to run. It's like, act like that didn't happen, act like that wasn't. It just thought it was in your head. And I said you know what? You're a miserable human being. What's the worst that's gonna happen? You explore what the heck that experience was. You've explored everything else, what you're To, you're too cool and to whatever, to explore the idea of a personal God. So then I did, and that's where stuff just just snowballed and that's the second half of my life so far. That's it's been wild since, but yeah what I mean.
Speaker 1:So it sounds like you were scared almost at once. I mean what? What's the first reaction outside of run?
Speaker 3:I don't want accountability If. If God is real, that means he's seen my life and I'm not proud of it and I'm not proud of the way I've treated people and I'm not. So that's, I think, why I wanted to run like. If there's a God, I immediately knew, well, he's better than me. So If he's better than me, that means and he, he knows better and knows the garbage you have done in my life. And I Didn't want. I don't want him to be real, because then that makes me accountable to my actions. I'd rather there be nothingness and Know that my actions don't really matter, so then I can just sleep at night.
Speaker 1:Sure is, is your wife religious, or was she religious at the time like the head you guys talked about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so she was, I think she grew up in a Methodist church and then eventually non-denominational Eastern church. That was a condition of her. He's like hey, you have, if you don't, if you're not Christian, I won't marry you. And I felt so hard in love with this woman that, just like I've done with all my other practices and or ideologies, I just crammed it in there. I crammed that I ideology into my head to the point where I couldn't get rid of it. So I told her yeah, I'm a Christian. I said because this is what my thought was okay, you're an atheist? Huh, well, if there's no point to life, then you can just make up your own rules Then.
Speaker 3:So I made up the rule that, well, it doesn't matter, god doesn't exist, so I might as well pretend like he does. And that's what I did. I just pretended like I or tried to do. Obviously, you can't really fully do that when you don't believe that and then I said, yeah, jesus is cool, I believe it, whatever this and that. And then eventually the truth came out and we were in our first year of marriage and I was just like man, I don't believe this, I don't believe in the monster that you claim to whatever. This and that, almost like a therapy session and my wife and yeah we.
Speaker 3:that was rough, that was a really tough time because she she was a very, very passionate about Jesus and still is.
Speaker 1:Yeah that I mean that's. That's got to be tough. I mean because I mean differing religions. Unless you talk about it like it's, it can be a shocker man like. So what was her reaction to that?
Speaker 3:When my wife is upset, she goes into herself, gets very quiet, bears it and Then just continues on and she just tried her best to be good wife, despite what situation I put herself.
Speaker 1:There's no what's what's, what's the time frame between? Like you like that, that conversation of like hey, by the way, like I've been faking it To you, hearing that voice, like what was the time period in between? So?
Speaker 3:that the in faking it's not really the right. I know you're just, I'm just I'm kind of be semantic sometimes. Sure it's not really faking it, because I Tried and I like crammed it in there. Maybe it was more like it didn't work that's more of how I would put it. So it didn't work.
Speaker 1:So that happened. Round peg in a square hole.
Speaker 3:Yes, yes, that happened before, when I was me sitting at my kitchen table saying why the hell am I so impressed? So I told her hey, this isn't working, I don't believe this stuff. And then a month or a year later I had that reconciliation by myself in a kitchen. So Did.
Speaker 1:What was her reaction to that then? Like, did you guys talk about that?
Speaker 3:Yeah, I didn't. When I told her my experience, she believed me and and she was very happy and I Wanted to honors. What was odd though. What was odd about it is that when I had that experience, my first reaction was who is Jesus? Hmm, I never cared about Jesus. Jesus was an object of antagonism and I wanted to fight the idea of Jesus. When I had that, then very next thought was who is Jesus? Who cares about this guy? Why him, why this guy? And then I sort of went head first into religiosity of Protestantism, non-denomination stuff, bible, bible learning, stuff like that. And she was very happy about that because that's the man she wanted a man.
Speaker 1:Then what like? So you hear this voice, you have a conversation with your wife. You are coming from this place of like Nothing, nothing matters, nothing exists other than much, myself, essentially to. Oh shit, some something is talking to me that might give me a bigger purpose in life, like what do you do with that?
Speaker 3:Yeah. So I did the wrong thing, which is trusting I Was. I was like man. I've been so miserable in my life. I started rejecting my my own intellectual and emotional instincts Because I was like man. I've been wrong my whole life. So I just started throwing everything I knew out out the window. And what I did is I ran to people that claimed they had answers in the name of Jesus. And you know, this is an. I'm not gonna try. I'm gonna try to make none of this personal. It's not against anybody in specific, okay, but oftentimes it can sound like it. So I ran to Other people's idea of who Jesus is, other people's idea of what the Bible means, and I just soaked it up. I just soaked up every philosopher, christian philosophers, idea on the Bible, on Christ, on Divinity, all that good stuff, and I Became the asshole. I once was as an atheist and became a Pharisee. I took that same mindset and just inserted Jesus and I didn't even realize.
Speaker 3:I did it, I didn't realize I did.
Speaker 1:It's like a swapping of of ideal, like you're very clearly looking for something right, like something something's missing, and we're just swapping Ideologies. At that point it sounds like so how did you get out of that point where you start to think for yourself again?
Speaker 3:Same type of conversation. Hey, my dad helped me with that because I was such a miserable son. We're talking, I don't know. We physical fights Like cussing my dad out, just the worst something at this time. Okay, all in the name of Jesus. Okay, and I'm not saying other Christians do this, but I had another sit down with myself. Okay, you believe in the greatest thing that's ever happened to reality. If you believe this, why are you such a jerk? Why are you so mean? Why are you so angry? And that's another whole thing that happened to me. Where I go, oh, I'm not actually reading this thing for myself, I'm actually, and that has been freeing a lot of ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I don't even know. Oh, that's, that's such a heavy thing, man, to like I. It's like you're almost having to like give up control in a way, while also Trying to make sense of everything so that you're not just like right download. I believe that now.
Speaker 3:Yep, that's exactly what I became a Calvinist, which Calvinism is a man that. So I believe that most religious people are Gnostics, and Gnostics are people that believe that the way to truth is through knowledge of something. Most, actually, non-religious people are Gnostics, which is why you often hear people compare science versus religion. That's a. That's a knowledge battle. That's a. Oh. Where did we come from? Why are we here? What is this compound do with this compound? Why does, why does things exist? Why do they not? Those are all knowledge things. What happens with Calvinism is that they get really good at claiming knowledge and Claiming an ideology in a system and get really good at reinforcing that system with knowledge of the Bible, with knowledge of their own ideology. And I became a mean Calvinist.
Speaker 3:Calvinism is the idea that, if I could boil it down to one thing, it's this that God created everything. God created humans. God created people Without the will to choose heaven or hell. So God will literally create a human for the purpose of destruction effort like eternal, eternal destruction and Our God will create a person for the purpose of eternal life. And I, I I believed that for a long time and it had a real toll on my mental health. Yeah, seeing seeing my brother Like the person that I love more than just about anybody. How do I reconcile my loving God just completely, just Removing his entire existence as a human? How can, how can I sit here and enjoy my life and be a loving person while I'm watching one of my favorite people Get sent to hell eventually? I Couldn't reconcile it.
Speaker 1:That's heavy, that's super heavy, so when it's almost like there's a sense. So when we're an atheist there's a sense of like what's, what does it matter? But we find ourselves right back at that conversation, like what does it all matter? If you know, we're gonna get sent to hell anyway.
Speaker 3:Yep, and I couldn't. Luckily, the Bible doesn't say any of that stuff. And this is the actual bone I have to pick about religious people and non-religious people, about the Bible. People do not know the Bible. I'm an obsessive person okay, this is an exaggeration. I used to study the Bible four hours a day and I used to scour that thing like my life depended on it, and that's not a brag, but there things happen when you commit that kind of energy to something. And what happened was I realized that nobody reads the Bible right, not that I do, I'm not saying I'm like King Bible guy, but I have a completely different King.
Speaker 3:Shea Bible. Nobody reads it right. They get their definitions wrong, they get their terminology wrong, and that matters when reading information and Christians in general like to act like it doesn't. And also, the type of Jesus that non-Christians are rejecting is a Jesus you should reject. It's a Jesus not worth following. It's a God not worth liking. But the good news is, if you read the Bible with a different lens and I'm not saying delude yourself and I'm not saying fool yourself. I've done that, tried to do that it doesn't work. But if you read the Bible for yourself, ask the stuff like well, what does it actually mean to be saved? What does eternal life mean? What is hell? What is heaven? And I can tell you this that's not what we say. It is based on what the Bible says and that's why everyone's so confused about it.
Speaker 1:So where does that leave you now? Like you've run the gamut in a lot of different beliefs and it sounds like even like working on your mental health at the same time. Like where does that leave you today? We talked at the beginning of the show. We talked about how you believe in God, you pray, do you identify as a Christian? Do you go to church or is it just trying to make sense of it through the Bible?
Speaker 3:I am not a Christian, because I believe that's one of those words that people misunderstand. I believe there are no Christians that exist today. Christians are particular people. In the time of Paul, at Antioch, Christians are very specific, like disciples and apostles and actual physical followers of Christ. Christ, that's a Christian. Now, does a Christian believe that Christ is the Messiah? Yes, but a non-Christian can believe that. The same, what seems the same thing can believe the same stuff. So I am not a Christian. My mother-in-law is not a Christian. They call themselves that, but they're mistaken. They're not. So I am. This is what I am. I'm a barbarian that once saw the world one way, as a barbarian sees it, and now I see it as something that can be beautiful because God can fix it, and we are broken humans and we have no choice in any of this. That God is going to fix it all, whether you like it or not. That's interesting. That's where I'm at now. I'm not a Christian, but I do believe in Christ.
Speaker 1:See, that's the hard part. I think that a lot of people aren't going to be able to square and, like you said, you're big on words and syntax and words matter and for you we're making a very big line in the sand, based on the period of history, of why Christians are called Christians. But a lot of people would just say I believe in Christ, I believe in Jesus. That makes me a Christian. That's going to be difficult for people to understand. I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it, but it makes sense, having not done the work that you've done. I'm not Wulverst in the Bible. I'm not Wulverst in a lot of different things from a religious perspective, but it's just interesting, man. I've never heard this perspective before and I find it fascinating.
Speaker 3:So I believe, miles, you're a barbarian and if you're going to relate to God, the best way you're going to be able to relate to him is as a king and as a warrior. If you are Jewish, the best way you're going to be able to relate to God is as a priest and a healer, and that's how I relate to God. I relate to God as somebody I can kick ass with in a good way, and that's a barbarian.
Speaker 1:So when you say barbarian, are you thinking about different levels of people, so like if you're a warrior, you're above what a barbarian is? Are they the?
Speaker 3:same. It has nothing to do with levels, as more to do with how you are raised in your culture. So I'm a barbarian, I'm not a Jew. A Jew has a completely different understanding of what certain words mean, why you say those words, how to relate to the concept of salvation, how to relate to the concept of healing.
Speaker 3:The reason why another reason why we struggle with the Bible is because we're reading a book written by Jews and none of us are Jewish. Not none of us. A lot of us are not Jewish. So we're trying to take our barbarian mindset and read a book written by Jews that they speak in a completely different way than we do, and so you're going to completely misunderstand it. So if I think about God, I think, oh, he's a guy that's got this sort of righteousness and he's a warrior and he's going to feed us and he's my leader and he's my Lord, all that stuff. Again, if I'm a Jew, maybe there's some of that, but it's a much different. There's a lot more priest stuff involved in the idea of God with Jews. So it's nothing to do with status, but everything to do with culture.
Speaker 1:Got it. Okay. This is a perspective I've never heard before, and this is why I do this shit. Man, this is awesome, sure. So you and your wife, do you guys have children?
Speaker 3:Yes, we have a son named Abram and a daughter named Georgia.
Speaker 1:So a question I always asked to parents is like what do you do with religion with them? Like how do you talk about it, how do you teach it?
Speaker 3:I don't teach, I express. I express what I think and I let him decide. Even though he's young and I know he's impressionable, I never give it God as a thing to be something to be learned or to be something to be conquered or to be something to make me feel good about him. I just express myself as honestly as I can to my son and I let the chips fall where they may and I don't teach him. I show him what I think and, for example, when I'll ask him, hey, do you want to pray? And oftentimes he says no, I say yeah, I don't really blame you. Praying is kind of boring, but I don't go. Hey, it's dinner time, this is our time to pray. That's religion. Sure, I'm not interested in teaching religion. I'm interested in teaching a man that knows how to navigate himself emotionally and spiritually.
Speaker 1:I like that. I like that Just less of the rigid structure that might come in when I was growing up like, look, you prayed before your meal. That's just what you did. You didn't think about it. So I like the idea of giving the tools you know if they're young and let them, kind of you know, figure it out along the way, because that's how you did it, that's how I did it.
Speaker 3:Well, you have. When I was here and you, I'm struck by your humility. You seem like you don't show your race. I can tell you you've got a lot going on up there and you're very humble and you act like and I might. When I say act, I don't mean disingenuously, I just mean you engage in this stuff in a way that is honorable, because I can tell you have a lot you would want to say and want to push back on, or for better or for worse. But that's really cool the way you're doing it.
Speaker 1:No, I appreciate that. Yeah, I really really appreciate that. You have no idea how much that means, and it is funny you talk about that because, I mean, most of my friends would describe me as argumentative, and so when I talked about doing this podcast yeah, absolutely, when I talked about doing this podcast, I think a lot of their fears is like oh, miles is going to talk the whole time, and it's like a new skill that I'm building almost as I go about this project of like, all right, you are the blank slate when you're talking, when Shay's talking to me, I'm the blank slate, teach me, and I'm going to have questions. What's funny, though, is that my wife and I are going to have an episode where, like, I share actually what I believe in my thoughts. So that's when I'm going to go off the rails, probably, and just let it all out there. But I really really appreciate that. Yeah, that really means a lot.
Speaker 3:It's been a good work, of course, of course. Yeah, it doesn't go unnoticed. I appreciate that.
Speaker 1:Well, shay, this has been awesome, man. I have learned a lot of a lot to think about too. Like I said, it's just a perspective that you don't normally get. I mean a lot like we've if you were listening to the other episodes like a lot of people have a very, very different journey, but also similar in the same path where, like, you start one way and you end some way, and that's kind of where you're at too. But the minutia in the middle is always what's interesting, and your middle is fascinating and I just appreciate you sharing your story.
Speaker 3:Well, of course, and I appreciate you letting me come on, because it helps me to be able to express and be able to refine how I express, which I think is important- yeah, it's not.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not every day where you get to have like a platform you know for, for example, like back when you were, you know, having conversations when you're an atheist, like you're, there's a back and forth, right, there's a debate, and there's not really a time where you can just be like, hey, this is what I believe and this is why take it or leave it, but this is this, is it? So I'm glad that you find that helpful too. But all the best to you and the family man, Two kiddos. Good luck with those. I'll be following you guys on on Instagram watching your dog videos. Maybe I'll try to take something with me and teach my dumb ass to some stuff. Yeah, if you go, man, just have fun with it. That's, that's the biggest thing, that's, that's the key, right, that's the key. All right, Jay, we'll talk soon. But yeah, thanks, Miles. Thanks again to Shea for coming on. That was a super awesome conversation.
Speaker 1:Now let's hear a sneak peek of next week's episode with author Christina Ward. Christina Ward is joining me. She has a book that's called Holy Food how Colts, Communes and Religious Movements Influenced what we Eat in American History. I have we talked earlier when, before we started recording. I haven't had the chance to read yet, but I'm so excited to dig into it. Christina, how are you doing?
Speaker 2:I am very well on this cold Wisconsin day.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were talking about we got to got to toughen ourselves up for the winner. So either one of us has our heat on as of yet we're just bundling up and making it work. Love it, love it Well again. Thank you so much for for setting some time aside to talk here. I'm excited to hear more about this book, but kind of where I always start on these podcasts is you know what? What is your faith and and religion at this point in your life?
Speaker 2:So I was so interested in speaking with you because I am atheist. Now, if you notice how I said it, I said atheist, not an atheist, because what atheism mean is without God. That's so I am without God. Of course, as an American, as so many of us grow up me growing up in the 70s and 80s is there is a tradition of growing up with some sort of cultural religion. In my family. My mother was Catholic, roman Catholic, and I went to actually Catholic schools for a few years, but my father was I guess the proper term would be agnostic. They are very old Americans and what I mean by that is I can trace my paternal roots back to the 1600s and doing a lot of that research.
Speaker 1:That's next time I'm finding my religion.
