Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
Rev. Preston Fields: "Churchy Kid"
Join the spiritual journey of Reverend Preston Fields, pastor of Salem Lutheran Church in Sycamore, Illinois, as he navigates his path from a Roman Catholic upbringing in Tennessee to the acceptance found in the Lutheran Church.
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Welcome to Finding my Religion. My name is Miles Phelps. Hey, do you have an iPhone 15 that you just got that you need a case for? Well, fmrpodcom has you covered. We have some brand new stuff over there, including phone cases that have branded with the fmrpod logo, so go check that out at fmrpodcom. Also, if you're not following us on Instagram, tiktok or Facebook yet, what the hell are you doing? And, as always, make sure to stick around for a sneak peek at the next episode.
Speaker 1:Awesome, well, I am super pumped for this episode, preston, reverend Preston Fields joining me today. He is the pastor of Salem Lutheran Church in Sycamore, illinois. I feel like I've been trotting in a lot of my hometown people and so I'm glad to speak with you. Preston, how are you doing? I'm doing fine, thank you, awesome, awesome. So we have a mutual friend who put us in touch and said that we should talk, so I'm super pumped to have this conversation and talk with you about your journey and what it is that you believe and just how things are going at Salem, so I guess the obvious place to start here. Actually, before I ask the tough questions, let's back up here. Where are you from originally? Because I don't think you're from Sycamore, correct?
Speaker 2:No, yeah, I grew up in Knoxville, tennessee, and so I lived in East Tennessee all my life Knoxville and then Marriville, tennessee. Marriville College is where I went to school and worked for a little while. So yeah, southerner in the Midwest.
Speaker 1:Awesome. I was just in Knoxville last week, oh really, yeah, my dad and my sister did a half marathon at I'm blanking on the name now, but it was like a small little town in the Smokies. We did like the Cavern, cave tours and the.
Speaker 2:River of Hatching. Yeah, sure, definitely, maybe. Yeah, that's exactly what it was?
Speaker 3:Yeah, it was super awesome.
Speaker 1:And just to like, I've never been in a cave that was dark, Like they turned off all the lights and like put your hand in front of your face and like you literally can't see your hand. It was a wild.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, it is. It's a lot of fun. We used to go down. We had a bunch of caves that we would go into as teenagers probably oh really Not safely, but lots of interesting places to have fun in the Smokies for sure, I bet, I bet, yeah.
Speaker 1:The other thing too is like everybody was so nice, like people in the Midwest are nice, but like it's like a different level in Tennessee. It was awesome. Everybody was just like anything you need like, just let me know, like go here go here, try this stuff.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so your people that you grew up with are doing proud down there. That's for sure Good, so what? So let's start with where you're at right now and then we'll kind of back up to like how you got here. So, like I said, you are a pastor at Salemton Church. Talk to me about like what that means for you. I mean, usually I ask like what your faith is. But being a pastor, I think we can kind of guess like what the faith is, but like what does that mean being a pastor at Salem?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think so. I've been there for five years now and it's a great question about what does it mean to be a pastor? I think that it means I get to walk along people in their faith journeys. I kind of see it as getting to go first in some ways. I always say that when I preach on Sundays it's just that I'm the first one preaching the gospel for that week, but everybody else is then sent to do the same. I feel a little bit like I'm called to live my faith out loud and make mistakes in front of everybody and kind of witness to the forgiveness of God and do my best, hopefully, to walk with. Like I said, walk with people and hope that they will do the same. So that's the basic thing about being a pastor.
Speaker 2:I mean there's a lot of boring administrative things that I do. There's a lot of really kind of intense things that we do. I'm coming off If I look a little tired. I've had kind of a string of funerals in the last two weeks that have just been really hard. But as much as it's hard, it's a privilege to be there and then I get to baptize babies and witness weddings and celebrate with people as well. So leading worship, the sacraments, that's the very core of my identity and I'm called a minister of word and sacrament. So if all else fails, that's what I do Preach the word and help facilitate the sacraments. But then everything else is just extra fun.
Speaker 1:I guess, yeah, I mean you kind of see in the entire life cycle of the human spiritual experience, right Like baptizing to death? Sure, that's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great job.
Speaker 1:Love it, Love it. So let's back up then Talk to me about did you guys grow up religious? I mean, what was it like for you?
Speaker 2:Sure, I grew up Roman Catholic in East Tennessee. I went to Catholic school, kindergarten through 12th grade. My mother is, or was, Catholic. I have two sisters. We all went to Catholic school.
Speaker 2:My father is not, was never Catholic, and so I grew up he was kind of he was always supportive of religion. He went to church with us. I think he's a follower of Christ. He grew up in a tougher religious background I think wasn't sure about church, very kind of strict religious household, and my grandfather was a pretty big evangelical Christian conservative and I think he was maybe carrying some baggage with that. But as we grew older all of us have kind of ended up in different churches.
Speaker 2:Mostly I'm Lutheran, my two sisters are Presbyterian USA and the kind of newest thing is I don't think she would mind me saying that my mom is kind of spiritually searching now also. So I think my mom usually just says she's glad she has kids that take church or faith life seriously. She doesn't really care where we go. But I do kind of think about that. My mom and dad spent all this money on Catholic school and then ended up with no Catholic kids. But yeah, my other joke is what do you get when you have a Catholic marriage, a Southern Baptist, Do you get a Catholic kid with authority issues or a Lutheran?
Speaker 1:I feel like that's like the like a lot of my friends that went to Catholic school, like nobody really practices, like it's few in between, but like it's that's kind of the trajectory it feels like of that generation and maybe it's different now.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I mean I learned a great deal from the Catholic church and I'm very appreciative of a lot, but it was just as my faith developed. The spirit kind of led me to different places.
Speaker 1:Sure, that makes sense. So growing up then, like was where you guys go into church, like I mean Catholic, so I guess you probably had to go to church like every week. That's probably part of it, right?
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, I went to church every Sunday and, you know, twice a week, during school at least. So that was. It was the center of our world, and the Catholic community in East Tennessee is not very large.
Speaker 2:And so, yeah, you kind of stick together when most of your neighbors are evangelical Christians and somewhat suspicious of Catholicism. You kind of end up with a tight knit group. But it's changed now. I mean, there's actually a lot of Catholics in Tennessee, but that's mostly because there's a lot of people from the North moving down to Tennessee now and the Hispanic population has really gotten larger too. So it's not nearly the kind of weird group that maybe it was when I was growing up, but it's still relatively small compared to, certainly, the Midwest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense. So for you, like, do you remember, like, what your thoughts were as a kid going through Catholicism in that school, like that? I was asked this question of like, like, was it just something that you did, like your parents, like, hey, you're going to Catholic school, so you're going to believe this thing, there's no questioning it really. But did you have any questions or was it just, you know, part of the normal day to day?
Speaker 2:I was really. I was pretty all in. I mean I really loved the church. I mean I think I've been a churchy kid for a long. You know, from the get go I liked thinking about these things.
Speaker 2:I was lucky that I grew up in a, even in the Catholic school. Growing up, at least, I think it's taken maybe a different trajectory since, but growing up I was very much allowed to question and we learned a lot of different perspectives and so I liked all that stuff. I think that the I think a lot of people probably thought I was going to be a Catholic priest. Certainly the Catholic priests, I think, thought I was going to be a Catholic priest, but Catholic well into my 20s and actually very involved. I traveled the country as a youth speaker and did youth retreats for the Catholic church and, with my best friend who was a musician and, you know, really loved the diversity of the Catholic church and you know all that kind of thing. So I wasn't really one of those kids that didn't like going to church or was forced to go to church. I really liked it.
Speaker 1:It's interesting. That's not the norm, right, like I mean what drew you into it, I mean you said you like questioning it and you were a churchy kid. Like that's not, what was it. I mean, my dad was a pastor and I hated going to church. Like it was just part of what you did and it's just like I never really clicked with me, but like what was it about it that drew you in?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that I think it was probably just a sense of community, but also a sense of I mean a sense of mystery, a sense of curiosity about the world. I think that growing up, I grew up in a tradition of Catholicism that really stressed social justice, oh right. And so I saw. I saw religion and I saw the ethics of religion as a way to make the world a better place. So I think I saw those practical aspects. Some of my biggest heroes were some of the sisters that would teach me during the week and then they would go and protest at the School of the Americas in Georgia on the weekend or something like that. So there is this real kind of they did a great job teaching me how to live your faith in the public square and what that might mean for the world. So I think that's probably what drew me in more. I'm not sure it was like dogma necessarily, but a sense of being part of a group that was trying to make the world a better place.
Speaker 1:That's some good examples. It sounds like that you had growing up. That's awesome. So you mentioned your Catholic into your 20s. You're pretty much all in. How old are you at this?
Speaker 2:point Actually 42 today. Hey, happy birthday, that's awesome.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm happy we could celebrate talking about religion this is great. So into your 20s, I mean. So what happens? Where you end up? I don't know the story. I don't know if you left the church or if it was a transition or like what was going on there.
Speaker 2:I think it was a series of things. On the one hand, I was traveling the country on the weekends, mostly with my best friend doing these retreats. In some ways, the Catholic Church was shifting towards a more politically conservative swing, and not just politically conservative, but also very much about right, exactly right doctrinal belief. I mean, they were really pressing in on do not? This is the way it is, I suppose At least that was my experience in the corners that I was kind of running into, and so I was kind of the speaker, while my friend was the musician and I was probably allowing the kids to question a little bit more than they would like, or maybe I was taking a different angle on some things.
Speaker 2:I was still doing the social justice pieces, whereas in some more politically conservative areas that was in the country suddenly social justice became a bad word or a suspicious word and I don't know. That was kind of an evolution. I had also and no, I'm giving you my story in these kind of nonlinear ways but I had left college and gone and worked for John Kerry on the John Kerry for President campaign, thinking that that was, in my view, at least from my faith perspective, I believed I was doing the right thing, but then was running into a lot of people who accidentally did not think.
Speaker 2:I was doing the right thing, and so that was. I was kind of getting some mixed messages there about could I be Catholic and be a Democrat, or could I be Catholic and work for John Kerry? John Kerry at the time was being denied communion at certain Catholic churches because of his pro-choice legislative record.
Speaker 1:And he's Catholic right.
Speaker 2:And he's Catholic, right, right, and I think he would even say personally he's pro-life. But he just had a different viewpoint as the Catholic Church about how that should be legislated, and so that I started getting a sense that maybe I wasn't fitting in as well. Then, like I said, I was traveling and then I had this other piece where, well, two things. One is I started feeling a call to ministry that perhaps people had been telling about all my life, but I started to get that call, not in the Catholic Church. I had spent some time working with the Children's Defense Fund and going to this great event at the Alex Haley farm in Tennessee and there were a lot of Protestant pastors that were social justice oriented and faith oriented, and particularly African-American pastors that were preaching, and I started feeling this kind of sense that maybe that was something I'd like to do. And I will never forget that.
Speaker 2:I was in a workshop with Otis Moss Jr that's the dad of Otis Moss III, who's in Chicago, and he was a big social civil rights leader in Atlanta and the South during the Civil Rights Movement, and we were having this discussion and he said why aren't you in seminary? And I said, well, I'm two things. I'm Catholic and I'm gay and that's not going to work for the Catholic Church. And I remember him kind of flatly saying sounds like you need to find another church. And that was the first time I really thought, wow, maybe I do. Maybe this is kind of holding me back from what I'm supposed to be doing.
Speaker 2:And then finally I met my husband. I had been kind of not out while I was working in the youth ministry, for sure and finally met this person that I started thinking, gosh, this might be who I always spend the rest of my life with. And I actually went to a Catholic church that was kind of progressive and I would say if I hadn't been called the ministry and I had stayed in Knoxville, this one particular parish probably would have welcomed me and my family and I had this extra piece where I was being called to ministry. So anyway, I started doing a lot of searching, found the Lutheran church, through lots of trials and kind of visiting, and realized actually the Lutheran theology was probably what I believed all along. I just didn't realize it.
Speaker 2:So it was a good fit and, yeah, I kind of went from there.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, that's impactful for somebody to be like hey, what you are or what you believe is not fitting what maybe you're preaching or what the or that you've. I didn't say that very eloquently, but you know what I'm getting at, Right? Well, I think he just saw that's powerful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think he. I am grateful that he thought I should be perhaps in seminary and a pastor, and I think he just saw that that was a barrier to maybe what I was being called to be Sure.
Speaker 1:That makes sense. I have a couple of questions. If they're too personal, let me know. The first is so, as a gay man in a Catholic environment, was it, was it ever uncomfortable, like, did you ever have those feelings of contradiction, of what might, what a priest might say to you versus who you are as a person and what the what the doctrine is Like? Were there any of those conflicts, or was it just something that didn't really didn't really have to wrestle with?
Speaker 2:Sure, I mean, I think I certainly wrestled with it, maybe in high school, when I kind of knew what was going on, but I wasn't sure how to live my life. I will say, though, that, for whatever reason maybe this is, I don't know, I don't know if I think it's a gift, but it could also be hubris I never, I never really questioned that this was got anything but God's plan for my life. I mean, I certainly heard what the Catholic Church was saying, that it was disordered and not the right way to live your life, but I don't know. You know it's funny in the Catholic Church there is a sense sometimes of there's a lot of rules. You know there's rules against contraceptive that nobody listens to. There's rules against, you know, not nobody. Surely there are people that do it, but you know there are a lot of rules and there is sometimes a sense of that. You live your life the best way you can within the context of the church, and I was, again very blessed by mostly by priests who were very kind to me when I was struggling with these kinds of things.
Speaker 2:I know that there are many Catholics out there that have not had the same experience that I have, but I remember I think it was early in college, you know, going to confession with a priest and saying you know, I kissed a guy for the first time and I don't know if I should confess this or not and we had a really good conversation around all of that and his penance because at the end of confession you kind of get a penance that you're supposed to do and he said I think you just need to pray about being who you authentically are and you need to pray for all the people who can't be who they are. You know, basically, he said pray for the closet cases of the world. You know, and that was really beautiful for me and, like I said, not not probably a typical experience, but he was just very pastoral in that moment and yeah, so again, I really don't have any Catholic horror stories, but I just didn't quite fit there anymore, sure. So that was, that was kind of where I was.
Speaker 1:It's uplifting to hear that, because of all the horror stories you do hear about right, and especially someone that might not fit the traditional mold of like who you're supposed to be as a Catholic and you have to be you know you have to marry a woman, you can't, you know you have to have 4,000 babies and you know all these different rules that like the bad stuff that you're about. But it's good to hear that there are good people that will support who you are as a person. Yeah, and that's not what is outwardly being talked about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the truth is is maybe the most conservative Catholics don't want to talk about it, but there are beautifully queer people in the Catholic Church that are living out their daily faith in wonderful ways that that I still look up to, you know, in lay life and in an ordained life, and so I think that's a, that's a model for the church Big C. You know, all of us, that there are different paths to do this whole thing and, um, this may be not. Yeah, I think that I got lucky there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's. That's really, really awesome. And it's like the other thing too is like in the south right, Like that. That's another thing that like what you hear about. Catholic South gay person like those something doesn't match. You know from some of your, from the outside looking at.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I mean again, I, as far as being from the south, I was, I was very lucky and I don't Um, you know, I some people probably can tell, just by meeting me maybe, that I'm gay. But for the most part, growing up I, I played sports, I, I my real admiration is for the guys who can't hide it in the south and still are amazingly who they are, because that isn't easy and I kind of had this privilege, not on purpose, but I just this privilege of not being a little ambiguous, I suppose. Sure, um, but there are some tough gay guys in the south. Let me tell you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, there would have to be right, right, yeah, just by the numbers.
Speaker 1:That's right, well, that's awesome, so. So I'm trying to get my my turn of thought here. So we, we have someone that says, hey, you're, you're probably not in the right church, you should go to seminary. Do you then run directly to seminary, or what happens after that?
Speaker 2:No, I mean it was leaving the Catholic church was very hard, it felt. I mean, I've never been through a divorce but I imagine that's what something, what it feels like. It's like leaving a culture, certainly, or at least like leaving a family. Um, I had to tell a lot of people, I had to kind of come out as not Catholic in some ways more before I came out as gay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what were those conversations like? Was that tough?
Speaker 2:Some of them were understanding. Uh, some of them were tough. I mean, I my best friend, tom, who I had to have that ministry with, you know we had a great ministry and I tanked it. I totally tanked it when I left the Catholic church and I went to him first and said this is what I'm thinking and this is how I'm feeling. And, um, I know this is going to impact you too, because we were booked out for like a year almost. And I said I feel like I need to be honest with everybody. So we sent out this email and basically said hey, we're still happy to come and do your retreat. Preston's not going to get up there and say anything that is anti-Catholic, but you need to know that Preston isn't in the Catholic church anymore. And a few churches who knew us and had long relationships with us still had us come and do their confirmation program that that year and things like that. But most churches canceled, you know, um, and that was kind of the end of that, uh, that era for both of us. And again, I kind of have to take responsibility for that.
Speaker 2:But, um, I spent a lot of time discerning where I was supposed to be. I, um, I went to the uh, a friends meeting for a while that's the Quakers, uh and kind of sat in silence for a bit. And they have these great um committees and I'm blanking out on what they call them. They're basically discernment committees where you can sit and they'll ask you questions as the spirit leads them. Uh, you should interview a Quaker for more information, cause that's about all I got for you, but um they are on me, let's go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it was.
Speaker 2:It was so helpful, though, Cause they sat there and they just all they did was ask you questions about you kind of come to them with a problem and you say, this is, I'm in transition, this is where I need help, and they sit there and quiet, and then they ask you questions as they feel like again like the spirit's leading them to do, and it was really clarifying for me about what I was looking for, and I think the most beautiful thing about that experience is it was fairly certain to them early on that I wasn't a Quaker, like as much as I was there and I was asking for their help and they were helping me. They knew that they weren't converting and making a new Quaker, but they were still stuck with me until I figured out where I was supposed to be, which was just again, a really kind of amazing thing.
Speaker 1:And I visited other. Yes, I want to pause just really quickly. Like what is a Quaker? I don't know if I've ever asked that question. I'm sure a lot of people don't know the difference of, like how that fits in with Christianity.
Speaker 2:And I'm not going to get. I'm not going to get it perfectly.
Speaker 1:But, it's.
Speaker 2:The official name is the Society of Friends and it was a movement, I believe, out of the 1600s although again Czech Wikipedia on me, or something out of England and they have been a group that their kind of terrorism, I would say, or their, their gift to us, is a real reliance on the Holy Spirit, not necessarily in like a Pentecostal way where they're speaking in tongues, but their, their meetings are very they're, they're strongly egalitarian. There's no, there are some Quaker churches now that have pastors, but in a traditional friends meeting you sit in silence asking for the Holy Spirit to come upon you and then, as the spirit moves you, you stand up and you can deliver a sermon or a testimony to the community and then you just sit down again and we wait for the next person, and sometimes a whole meeting will go by and it's just sitting in silence and being in community together. They have been known early on for equality with women, for example giving women a voice in the church. They were at the forefront of like abolition. The abolition movement absolutely did not believe in any separation of races or anything like that. So they are a really beautiful community to get to know.
Speaker 2:There's not a lot of them necessarily. It's a church that in the least in the United States. For sure, that is kind of on the decline but as many are, but it is there. There are generally very helpful and loving people interested in making the world a better place. You know again the intricacies of their dogma. I'm not. I didn't get into it too much, but I do know that the fruit of their spiritual practices was very helpful to me.
Speaker 1:Sure, so we meet the Quakers, we are Quakers, you're not a.
Speaker 2:Quaker Right Basically yeah, you're not a Quaker I did like liturgy, I liked, you know, kind of a church ritual and things like that was helpful to my spirituality. And so I started visiting around and I decided for myself that I needed communion every Sunday, which whittles the denominational pull down. And why is that? I decided?
Speaker 1:I've heard a lot of people say that communion is very important to them. Yeah, and I get it a little bit, having gone to church, but like for you personally, like why was that so important?
Speaker 2:I, you know, I think it's just the spiritual food I need. I mean, and maybe I'm sure it comes out of my Catholic upbringing as well, but I do believe that there are special graces and that I do believe in a presence of Christ in the communion, and I, I just for my own spirituality. It just feeds me in a way that nothing else really does. And so I knew that for my own kind of spiritual wellness and my own living out my faith in the world, that was something I wanted to have regularly, awesome. And so you know, and this doesn't I'm not putting down churches that do it quarterly or whatever else, but I just I really would like, I'd like it every Sunday if I could get it. Yeah, so that I mean that kind of whittled it down. And then the other thing is I, I, I did feel like certain churches felt familiar to me. I mean, it was somewhat comfortable with their liturgy and things like that. And so you know, after all, that I basically was left with the Episcopalians and the Lutherans and, like I said, once I started talking to a Lutheran pastor, there was something about the theology and the grace in that theology that just grabbed me and took hold of my heart and I was kind of sold.
Speaker 2:I was in, and I will say I wasn't alone in this journey. My now husband, wesley, was then my boyfriend. He's coming out of a Southern Baptist tradition that he didn't really connect with in his youth and he was very patient with me because I was probably a little bit more particular about what I was looking for. But he really fell in love with the Lutheran tradition in his own way too, and so it just we kind of looked at each other and thought this is where we belong, and it was after 2009. So I mean, it was actually 2010. So the ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, had already voted to start ordaining gays and lesbians, and so I knew that if seminary was in my future, this was also a tradition that I could participate fully in, if that's where I was headed.
Speaker 1:What is so? I'm gonna have a couple of questions about the specific sects of Lutheran, but we'll come back to that. Oh yeah, for you. I asked this question to my dad because he was actually a Lutheran pastor in LCMS. Right, yeah, what is seminary like? What I mean? Is it just like college and college without the partying? I'm just thinking, but like what's that? I wouldn't say, there's no partying actually.
Speaker 3:Fair enough fair enough.
Speaker 2:There was a. I went to school at Lutheran School of Theology in Chicago. It was in the Hyde Park area of Chicago where the University of Chicago is and this consortium of other seminaries that you can kind of take classes in with these other groups too. So that was very cool. And there was one particular bar that all the theology students go to. It's a very funny. It's the only bar, probably at least in Chicago, that you'll go into and see people studying Hebrew and Quine Greek.
Speaker 1:That's so cool.
Speaker 2:Downing beers and arguing over whatever in fun, right, but we used to have beer and hymns every so often where we would go and bring the hymnals and sing loudly. But yeah, I mean, I think it's some ways it is like college, it's like grad school. You do have classes, you have homework, you have papers, but I would say the other piece of it is some formation, that there's this idea that you're not just getting knowledge into your head about the Bible or about doctrine or about theology or about pastoral care and things like that, but you are also trying to get to a place where you feel spiritually ready to lead other people and kind of take that responsibility seriously, understand what that responsibility feels like. Try it on for size.
Speaker 2:I listened to the podcast with your dad and it's actually very familiar. We have two years and then we go off on internship and come back for that final year and while we're there we're assigned or at least our seminary assigns us to a church. So I was assigned, very stereotypically perhaps, to a church in Boystown, which is the gayest neighborhood in Chicago but also has one of the largest, youngest Lutheran churches in Chicago. Oh, so interesting to learn how to do ministry in that context. And so, yeah, it's academics, it's formation, it's spiritual growth. There's kind of two tracks. The seminary is kind of teaching us and then we have something called a candidacy committee. That's a separate group of lay and pastors in our denomination. That's evaluating us at different steps to make sure that we're meeting certain milestones. So it's possible to graduate with a seminary degree in the ELCA but not become a pastor if the candidacy committee doesn't also pass you through. Right, it's kind of a both and two track system.
Speaker 1:Got it. That makes sense. So in hearing you describe your journey like, it seems like you've been accepting of doctrine as it's been presented to you. But were there any times that you had to unlearn something that was like oof, that didn't see that coming like? That's not what I was taught.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think more than anything and I don't know if this, I was even taught this in seminary, but this is perhaps where I've landed.
Speaker 2:I think when I was growing up, catholic right belief was very important.
Speaker 2:Right, there were certain things you had to believe to be a Catholic right, and while there certainly are things in the Lutheran tradition that are core to our identity, one of the things that I appreciated about at least my corner of Lutheran tradition is that debate is very welcome that if we believe that grace saves us and that works, do not right belief is in essence, a work right, and so I don't know that it's while it's it's important for us in the Lutheran tradition to carry on the Lutheran tradition and to teach in alignment with that tradition.
Speaker 2:I don't believe that that's what's gonna save me. Right, jesus saves me, and so once you kind of see it from that angle it's, this is our tradition you start to see yourself as part of kind of an ecumenical chorus with a particular line, rather than the only right people out there, right, and so I think that broader picture of the church, where perhaps each denomination has something to add and something to teach, the other is where I've kind of landed and it's just such a more peaceful kind of bigger picture of who we are as Christians than perhaps I had before.
Speaker 1:That's fair. I think maybe it's my personality and my projection that I'm putting out there. Because when I look back at my time in like the LCMS church, and then I get to where I'm at now, which is like an unsure, you know that there could be stuff there could not be. But I look back on that and like, ooh, they're wrong about this. And they're like why don't they believe that, whatever the thing is now, versus like it's all in harmony and like it's, there's the waves, there's minutiae in between it.
Speaker 1:That's a much more peaceful place to be, and I like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's I mean, I think that's the truth too, so that helps yeah yeah, so was Salem.
Speaker 1:Probably wasn't your first church, correct? Or was it it is? Yeah, oh, it is cool.
Speaker 2:So my very second career. I didn't go to seminary, actually, I think not to keep harkening back, but maybe it'll make your listeners listen to another podcast but I think your dad and I entered seminary the same age I was 32.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, yeah, I mean you should be promoting the podcast.
Speaker 2:This is great, that's right, so go back and listen to the other one for context. But I was yeah, I was 32 years old, so I had spent a lot of time working. I mean the other piece that we didn't really talk about I worked at Marible College as the director of community engagement and then got my master's in social work also. Oh, wow, so a lot of stuff happening in my 20s there. And then the last kind of practical piece is found the Lutheran Church. I think I can't remember how many years. I think they like for you to be a Lutheran for like three years before you go to seminary, which makes sense right, yeah.
Speaker 2:That you kind of get into the church and you know what you're getting into before you decide you need to lead it. But the other practical piece was my husband was in veterinary medical school at the University of Tennessee. So I was kind of waiting for him to finish that degree. So he graduated in May and I started seminary in August.
Speaker 1:What's the process like? For like, I know, when my dad and I talk like you get called to a church, is it the same? There's like a ceremony that goes through that Like. What's that process like?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think it's very similar.
Speaker 2:First call is a little different from the calls after that because I think the bishops and the Synod staff kind of hold your hand maybe a little more when you're trying to find your first call.
Speaker 2:We are assigned out of seminary and things are even changing, even in the last five years, but when I was going through it, and still mostly today you're assigned to a region and then to a Synod which is like the governing area just before you graduate, so it's in the spring. You kind of fill out your preferences. It's kind of like if people are in the military, you're kind of preference sheet, right, I'd like to be here, here, here, or you can check open to anywhere the church wants to send me, and then you get assigned. And then you'll get assigned to a Synod. The bishop staff will call you and they have a whole list of your talents and your interests perhaps and things like that and I should go backwards. But when you're getting assigned to these regions and these Synods you used to go to, there used to be a big day where all these bishops used to gather in Chicago at the ELC headquarters and basically go through all the seminarians and we jokingly called it the Lutheran draft, because but the Harry Potter sorting hat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like the.
Speaker 2:Synods of Highest Need got first pick right and they would go through the candidates and they would say, like I really. And they might say I really need somebody who speaks Spanish. Well, so then our seminaries would send representatives who were if you've followed, if you stretch this analogy, we're almost like our agents right and they would say this person speaks Spanish and she really would love to be in North Carolina and let me introduce you to her right.
Speaker 2:And then they go around and they start picking and they around and around and there's some behind the scenes trading like I really need somebody who's good at this. I'll give you two of these for one of those those kinds of things.
Speaker 2:And then we never get to hear the backs, the behind the scenes stuff. But then eventually we at least how our seminary did it we gathered in the chapel and they handed us an envelope and then you opened it and it said you are assigned to the Synod. Right After that is when the Synod will call you and say these are the churches we have in mind for you. They need a pastor. And then after that it's between you and the church. So you interview with a church. The church has a call committee of lay folks who are trying to find a pastor. Once they think they found somebody that fits what they need, they then forward their name onto the council we was like the governing body of the church. They will kind of approve that and say, yes, we think the call committee is onto something. And then it goes to a full vote of the congregation. Wow. And so you go and you, you do a lot of interviewing and then eventually end up kind of speaking in front of the congregation answering questions, and then they vote on you.
Speaker 1:So that's awesome. That was. Yeah, I'm trying to think of, like what a what a combine day for for the pastors would be like do you have to do so many, so many baptisms and so many like?
Speaker 2:yeah, right, that's right. After you run the 40. Raising trading cards, maybe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. So so then you get, you get chosen or you get drafted by Salem.
Speaker 3:Yeah right.
Speaker 1:What's it? What's it like that? First, like it has to be some sort of relief too. Like, okay, I had a home. And then, like I know what my dad talked about is like this. Oh shit, like this is real now. Now I have to like.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and I mean I, you know, I don't think Salem would mind me saying, but ours was a little tougher because I was the first gay person to be called, you know, to be considered.
Speaker 1:Because you said they had just voted on being able to do that.
Speaker 2:Well, that was that was when, in 2009, they voted on that.
Speaker 3:And that was when I was just becoming Lutheran.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is 2018 by this point, right, so I mean, they've lived with that. But you know it's. It's one of those funny things of even if the domination has voted on this a lot of churches who did not leave when that vote happened, which we did have a split in the church that some Lutheran churches didn't want toward being gays and lesbians, and they just left to conform to their own denomination. But even the ones that stayed, you know it's it's kind of different in theory and in practice, and so when my name was put forward, there was a little bit of controversy. I still my call vote was something like 86%, yes, which is good, seems fine.
Speaker 2:But there were some folks that were having.
Speaker 2:They had trouble with it, and there were, unfortunately, some folks that decided they couldn't stay at Salem if I was going to be the pastor, so they left for other churches.
Speaker 2:So it, you know, the first day honestly was a little bit of a bummer, because I got in, I was like really excited and on my desk we're just a pile of transfer letters of people basically leaving because of me and I technically had to like sign them to transfer their membership to these other churches, and so that was. You know, that was not my favorite first day way to start a first day, but since then we've really built a beautiful community together and I will say some of the people that I'm pretty sure voted against me but stayed and decided to stick it out. I feel like we have a really good relationship and I don't know if I've won them over totally, but certainly we work together well and we can at least put that piece aside. If they don't, you know, we don't talk about it honestly, directly, but I feel like they're very supportive, or they would have gone away by now, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I mean my first reaction is like that that's super sad. And then the other side of like the glass half full would be like, wow, this is an opportunity to like change people's minds and like it feels like as a country we're even going towards that direction of just more acceptance, like how it should be. And it just sucks. It has to be put on you Like that you shouldn't have to have that type of first day. You know that sucks.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it did. I mean I, you know I on the grander scheme of people who have suffered for the movement of gay rights, mine is not very high.
Speaker 2:I mean I do, I do you know, somebody has to be first, and I wish it hadn't been so and I actually wish that folks would have stuck around, because I think we could have probably come to an understanding. And you know, they didn't really get to know me, they just knew a few key facts about me that they just couldn't quite handle. But you know, what are you gonna do, you know, in the end and, like I said, we've really built a church now that is so welcoming and so affirming, not just to gay and lesbian and trans folks, but to people of different socioeconomic backgrounds and all that I just feel like we're. It really sharpened our mission in some ways, and I think we're a better church, not necessarily because of me, but because the congregation took that chance to take a stand on that. This person might act, the spirit might actually be calling this person to be our pastor, and it just so happens that he's gay, right. So, yeah, I mean I'm very proud of my church.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, yeah, I mean from. I know a lot of people left the church that my dad was a pastor at and that I belonged to and went to Salem Even when my dad was there. I mean, it's all it feels like it's always been a congregation, even before you were there, that was just more accepting of folks and which brings, I mean, I guess that's a good transition. I mean, for when you say Lutheran, like my first reaction is LCMS, because that's what I know, what I grew up in. But I mean, can you talk about just Lutheran as a whole and like, yeah, we don't need to go into a whole history lesson, I don't need to put this all on you, but like why are there different sections of it and what would be the difference between?
Speaker 2:you know your ELC. I always get the lightest confused.
Speaker 1:And then the LCMS, like what would be the key differences between you guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that I mean it's funny because, again, I didn't grow up Lutheran and I feel like the differences are more potent maybe is the right word to folks who have grown up in Lutheran traditions for longer. I know that. You know, the Lutheran church in the United States is a really kind of interesting thing anyway, because they came, lutheranism obviously came over with immigrants and they largely came over with immigrants of different nationalities and so, like Salem is 150, what? Three years old now, I think. And they were a Swedish church right For the first gosh. I think they started doing services in English in the 1940s right, like in Sycamore or Broadway In Sycamore, yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, I had no idea.
Speaker 2:And so the Lutheran church was very tied to ethnicity at first with immigration into the United States, and so each country kind of had their different styles of Lutheranism and ways to approach and even the structure of the church.
Speaker 2:The Germans had theirs, you know, and over the history of the United States those groups have slowly but surely merged with one another to become larger Lutheran bodies.
Speaker 2:And the ELCA, the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America, actually didn't form until 1988.
Speaker 2:And it was came from, I think and this is what I'm gonna get wrong, but I'm gonna just go ahead and throw out a number of, I think five big groups of Lutherans that came together to form one denomination under kind of the American Lutheran banner, right, and it did its best to kind of mix and match traditions and stuff.
Speaker 2:And of course it's our denomination is also a bit congregationalist, in that each congregation has a lot of say about some of their traditions and the way they do things because of different strands that have come together. So that's both the beauty and the challenge, I think, of the ELCA in some ways, and the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod, and this is where I'm a little more vague, just because I don't know, but I do know that their history comes from a group of immigrants that came over, I wanna say from Prussia, and it was a movement that was formed because the rulers of that area were kind of trying to force churches to merge, particularly like a Calvinist and a Lutheran traditional churches. The king was basically like we just want one united Protestant church.
Speaker 3:you have to figure out how to do it.
Speaker 2:Really without care for doctrinal difference, that he just wanted them to smash together, and I think that the LCMS is a group of immigrants that came over in objection to that. And I wanna say not to like be a psychologist denominational psychologist, that's even a thing but I think because of some of their identity early on was don't make us compromise on who we are. That's tended to carry on in their tradition in that they are less likely to be ecumenically connected with other denominations. They're a little suspicious of that, in fact, and so they. Certainly, when the ELC was forming, they were not interested in kind of joining up right.
Speaker 2:The other pieces, I think, are just functions of tradition, but ELCA practices an open communion table to any Christian that wants to come up and take communion, and I know that the LCMS does not, definitely not.
Speaker 2:We ordain women and now, as the 2009 gays and lesbians, lcms does not, and I think there's probably, like I said, it might be coming from that history a definite interest in doctrinal purity and the ELCMS that you may not find in the ELCA. I think the ELCA is a little bit more open to discussion and it feels a little chaotic at times because everybody has an opinion and we all love to share it in the ELCA. But that's actually kind of what I love about it too is that we can have these debates and people can bring in these things, and it doesn't necessarily break our relationship, it's just we can have these talks. So that's what I know about the differences between those. I know there's other Lutheran denominations in the United States too that I even know less about, like the Wisconsin evangelical Lutheran church and things like that, but or Synod. But yeah, that's what I know about at least a little bit of the history of that, and if anybody is listening and I got it wrong, you can totally correct me, because I again.
Speaker 2:I'm still feel like sometimes the newbie Lutheran, yeah right, even if I am a pastor. There's probably nuance there. I've missed somewhere, but no, that's helpful. I don't get to hang out with the Lutheran church, missouri Synod folks much, but Well, that's probably.
Speaker 1:That goes back to like what you're saying about just like the little bit more closed off.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is a little bit more interested in.
Speaker 2:and, yeah, making sure that they, yeah, protect their identity, I guess I would say but I mean, I know individuals that go to St John's in Sycamore and they're lovely people and I like them very much. But yeah, absolutely, I just yeah, institutionally there's not a lot of conversation. I will say the interesting thing is the one place there is conversation in the past between the LCMS and the LCA is the African American Lutheran tradition in the United States seems to be better at those conversations, like the Lutheran Church of Missouri Synod has a beautiful history of mission, especially in the South, to African American people and like helping people out. And then the ELCA has these African American churches that have been around for forever and where there has been cooperation between those two denominations. Oftentimes you'll see it in the African American Lutheran communities, which I think is really another interesting piece to the puzzle.
Speaker 1:That's definitely interesting. My dad had a joke I think on the podcast he talked about it of the LCMS outreach program was simply leaving the door unlocked. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, that could be. Yeah, I could probably make that joke for us sometimes too. Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 1:So a couple more questions for you and then let's get out of here. I know that you're a busy dude. So you had mentioned, I think just kind of like off the cuff, about how church membership or maybe just religion as a whole is on the decline in America, right, actually, at a meeting with a professor of religious studies at UW earlier in the week and he had mentioned the same thing, I mean, what's your take on that? Like, do you feel like there's a reason why people in like our generation I know you're a little bit older than me, but not my bunch Like why is that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think that's the big question now. I mean, it's been on the decline for a while. I think general trust in institutions as a whole is really low, religion or otherwise, so I think that might have something to do with it. I've kind of looked at all these statistics and it doesn't always break down the way you would think. Really, the generation honestly right now in the most flux isn't the young generation, it's the baby boomers. Although our churches probably have still more baby boomers than anybody else in them. The percentage, generational percentage of baby boomers that have not returned to church after COVID, I think, is almost higher than any other. Really, I know many of them, that they're still a large share of the congregation that stayed, if that makes sense. I think the baby boomers are going through something right now and I don't know what it is and I'm not part of their generation exactly. But COVID, I think, really has accelerated some things. I think there's some searching going on, there's some questioning that perhaps they didn't question before.
Speaker 2:I think that, unfortunately, the politics of the United States is certainly part of it. I think more I'm not even going to say progressive because I think that makes me sound like I don't say the Lord's Prayer or something. There's a certain group, but I think the most conservative churches have certainly branded themselves as Christian and it's hard for us kind of mainline churches to break in and say, oh no, we're Christian too and we don't really think the way you do, and so it's become this political marker. That is unfortunate because there's a lot of assumptions around when you say Christian now that you can automatically assume who you vote for. And I think they're calling it the great sort right where we're dividing ourselves into geographical regions and states and areas, and so I think more progressive leaning folks kind of don't feel like they belong necessarily in church, kind of making assumptions. I think many would feel comfortable saying that. But I'd also say that there's this idea of, again, kind of doctrinal purity that isn't really religious as much as it is political.
Speaker 2:And I've unfortunately had some families leave the church, not because of any conflict at the church necessarily, or even conflict with our stance on welcoming different kinds of people, but the ELCA, my denomination, has been kind of branded from a certain perspective as a liberal church and they kind of think to themselves well, I'm not liberal politically and therefore cannot go. I should not be a part of this church. I don't know. So I mean, I just think there's a lot of that going on. I will say that Generation Z is not particularly church affiliated, but most surveys I've seen are the most spiritually curious and I'm interested in what that means for that generation.
Speaker 2:I think that not that I'm just trying to make more Lutherans, but I do hope that if there is some spiritual curiosity out there, I want to make sure that there are more, that a welcoming and affirming voice of spirituality is present in the public square so that they can hear that.
Speaker 2:I'm really afraid to cede, to give over to just one brand of Christianity as the Christian way, because they'll either be brought into those churches that I don't think are necessarily the healthiest way for them or they'll not be affiliated ever because they just don't think that there is a place for them in the church. And so, statistically right now I keep telling my folks, as we look at church growth and outreach opportunity is that the people that have left, I don't think they're coming back, I think they're gone. I don't think we should spend our time trying to convince people to return if they've just they're done with it. But I do think there's this other group that has never grown up in church and are hungry for something, and they can't quite put their finger on it, and I think that we, I think that the sacraments and I think our approach to following Christ is perhaps what they're looking for, and so I think that's where we need to kind of put our attention.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense and I think it's interesting too. You talk about baby boomers and even my mom and dad's generation like my dad talks about it of when you had a kid, like you went to church because that was your sense of community. That's how you found what was right, what was wrong. That's how you taught your kids.
Speaker 1:That's not what the younger generation is getting, because people just aren't going to church, and so there's like those questions aren't able to be answered because you're not in church. And I don't know if that's good or bad. I mean, it's probably bad from, like, the seat that you're sitting into because you want people to know this awesome thing that you believe, and if you can't get him in the door, then like that's tough.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, and I think I mean as a I think two things. I look at it, I mean as a kind of person who worked in campus ministry in college. I just I've seen that there are churches that I do think there are unhealthy churches, and I think if, again, if they are the only ones offering answers or a place to ask questions or whatever, I think that we have to be careful, because I think, you know, I do think it's good at least to give your children some kind of basis of knowledge, even if they don't end up being that for the rest of their lives, because at least they have a starting point. What I'm seeing now is a lot of people who didn't grow up in church at all and didn't talk about spirituality at all in their house, and I, I think there were people that can pray on that, right, and I just I really want people to to be safe and healthy spiritually wherever that leads them. And the other piece is I'm a dad. I've got a three year old we adopted a few years ago and that's awesome. Same kind of thing, right?
Speaker 2:I, I don't know that the I mean when he comes of age, is the evangelical Lutheran church in America going to be around. I I don't know that it's a guarantee, but I don't think that. I feel I don't. Whether it's my local church or my denomination, I'm not sure I'm in a panic to save it from trends that may be unstoppable. I don't know that that's worth putting my energy or anxiety into.
Speaker 2:I I believe enough in the church that I think if, if we need to die, then that's an okay thing, because I also believe in resurrection and I believe in the church and the gospel message enough to know that it's not going anywhere. It just may not look like what we have now and you can spend a lot of time, you know, being awake at night trying to save something that I don't know. That really matters as much as as long as the gospel of Jesus Christ exists and that people are loving their neighbors and and know that God loves them immeasurably, I mean, and the sacraments are being distributed and spiritual food and sustenance, I mean those are the core things, and so it can look at a lot of different ways and I, I, I don't think that's going anywhere.
Speaker 1:Sure that makes sense. So well, I think you know having this conversation is is one of the key things of like. Why I started this podcast is to to show that, like I've had people on here that I just fundamentally disagree with, but I also hearing you talk is like I could. I could see myself in that or like that space that you guys operate. I'm not there yet, but like I could see myself, at least from like a political standpoint.
Speaker 1:Like what's what I feel like is right and wrong. Like it feels like you guys are symbolizing those things and you're right. Like when you, when you hear Christianity at this point, like I have friends and families that if you were to say, like I'm a Christian, they're going to be like come on, dude. Like really like that gay marriage, you know the, the, the ability, like the ability to protect, you know life and like all these different things that are like in the stratosphere of our politics right now or are really visceral, and to show that like, hey, there is other options and you can still believe that. Like, if you do want to believe that there's a God, and like here's how. And these are the people that are supporting the same things that you might believe in. That's cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I mean, I really we have Republicans and Democrats and independents at this church and I, just, I, I I really believe that church could and should be a space where we have hard conversations. I don't think it's a place to ignore hard conversations at all. But if, if you put the love and dignity of each person first, that's uncompromised right. You can't like you are first a child of God and then you are everything else. I think that creates some space for disagreement and you can even still disagree, you can even get mad at each other, as long as you leave some room for grace and forgiveness in the long run. But I just, I'm just not ready to believe that we just can't sit next to each other in a church. I'm not going to. Maybe that's naive, I don't know but I just, I really feel like church can be a space of of healing and and finding common ground and and disagreement and all the rest.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's that's very, very well stated. Well, preston, thank you so much for for coming on and for doing this. I learned a lot. Hopefully I didn't didn't pester you with too many, too many tough questions here, but I just really appreciate the time and and and the openness.
Speaker 2:Great. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1:Thanks again to Preston for coming on. That was an awesome conversation. I really, really enjoyed talking with him and now a sneak peek of next week with Jay Quinn. So let's talk about religion. You reached out and said that that you know you were very interested in having this conversation and, again, I'm honored to be able to do this. So thank you for spending the time to do it. But what's what's your faith and what's your religion at this point in your life?
Speaker 3:That's what a cool question, cause I don't really have a religion. It's. I see religion as and I think a lot of people see this religion as something. Well, you know what? I probably have a religion, but it might not be aware of it. So I see religion as something that has to do with your habits and your practices, whether conscious or unconscious, and oftentimes religion is I'm going to do these rituals or these habits in the name of my faith.
Speaker 3:So I probably do things out of habit that have to do with my faith that I'm not aware of, but I don't actively pursue practices on a daily basis. I'll pray occasionally.
Speaker 1:And until next time I'm finding my religion.
