Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
Joe Ross: "Leaving Jehovah"
Ever felt the tug and pull of faith, the quest for identity in spirituality? You are not alone! Join us as we navigate the faith journey of Joe Ross, a man whose spirituality has taken various forms and directions. From Jehovah to Jesus, we journey with Joe through his religious evolution, his passion for golf and fatherhood, and his strength in supporting others. We are honored to have Joe with us, opening up on his rich life experiences.
Dissecting his time within the Jehovah’s Witnesses, Joe Ross deconstructs the process of becoming a baptized member, overcoming fears, and the grueling routine of door-to-door preaching. The heartrending experience of his disfellowship, his decision to join the US Navy, and the subsequent guilt he lived with, are powerful stories you want to hear. Add to this his encounter with a chaplain, his confession of agnosticism, and the challenges he faced in his faith and organized religion, our conversation with Joe is not just an exploration of faith but a testament to the human spirit.
https://linktr.ee/findingmyreligion
https://www.findingmyreligionpod.com
myles@findingmyreligionpod.com
Welcome to Finding my Religion. My name is Miles Phelps. Hey, are you following us on Instagram, tiktok, facebook, all that good stuff? If not, do that Please. We want to engage with you. You can find all the links to that stuff in the show notes, so please go check that out. And also make sure to stick around after this show for a sneak peek of episode four. Alright, I have been waiting for this conversation. This conversation feels like it's like 10 years overdue. Joe Ross joining me here. We were talking before we started recording that. I think last time you and I even had communication face-to-face like this was before you even had kids, and now you have a senior in college. Is that what it is? That is correct. That's crazy. That's unbelievable how you been man I'm good buddy.
Speaker 2:Time flies when you're having fun.
Speaker 1:Definitely does. So a little background, joe I think you're the first person that I've had on this podcast that has gone to that went to the same church that I grew up in. That wasn't a family member, so it's going to be an interesting conversation because you're not affiliated with that church any longer. You've had your own spiritual journey, which is extremely interesting. So I'm excited to get into that. But I think the biggest thing that I wanted to first start off with was that you are a very caring person.
Speaker 1:I remember when my dad was going through his struggles kind of the first round of alcoholism and has problems with some other things, you were the first person that showed up and would take me out golfing. You would take me out to lunch. He was like hey, man, how are you doing so? It's just awesome to talk to somebody that, no matter what the we might not be at the same points in our faith journey, but it's just so cool to talk to somebody that, like I knew, always had my back, even as a kid. So I appreciate you having the willingness to do this.
Speaker 2:I still have your back now. I promise I love your father like a brother. I still do. I'm sad that our lives have taken us in different directions and I don't seem saw him a few years ago at Pump Confest and it was like like greeting an old friend, but the conversation ended abruptly and and it was you know, we kind of went our separate ways. But I keep telling myself I should reach out. I know he's still golf, you know, hey man, you want to go, you want to go golf, you want to go. You know, have breakfast. And, like you and I spoke, life gets in the way you know the symptoms of adulthood.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. That's well put. Yeah, he's dad's doing well he's. He's golfing, he's got. He's in a league now at Bliss Creek, but I think I got him addicted to it. He's got the bug now. He's got like, all the gadgets and work on his game. I got him some lessons a couple years ago so I still I still kick his ass. So he's trying to. He's trying to work up where I am.
Speaker 2:Not that we're here to talk about golf, but my golf story is that in 2001, I played 127 rounds of golf Holy hell. I was an executive chef at a private club in the in the suburbs and man, I played five, six times a week. I was constantly playing golf. My son was born in May of 2002. And I bet you I haven't played 12 rounds of golf since 2002. I'm up to like three this year, so hey, there's nothing.
Speaker 1:I keep telling my wife, like I play a lot now and I know that it's it's not a forever thing, so at some point possibly want to have kids, and now it's like, all right, let's, let's take advantage of it as much as I can, to her chagrin. But just, it's a passion, but she's not into it and she's she more so would like to just kind of ride the cart and have a couple of wedding marriages, which is great, and I'll invite her to do that every now and then. But I, I'm very competitive, so I like I like to win and play 18 holes, the whole 18, versus just, you know, cutting out at nine. So it doesn't usually match with what she wants to get out. She'll get out with me a couple times here.
Speaker 1:Let's do it. Let's get on the schedule. Well, cool, let's talk about why you're here. So I always start this with like, where are you at today, joe? What's what's your faith, what's your religion?
Speaker 2:My faith has evolved to. Basically I'm an evangelical Lutheran Church of America member. I struggle with the fact that I don't go to church much at all, though last year I was able to lead one of my daughter's confirmation groups, so I was there every Wednesday but felt like a hypocrite because Sunday morning came and I went. I guess I'll go make breakfast. But my faith is that I am a Christian. I believe in God solely. I believe he sent his son to die for our sins. I struggle and I'm sure we'll get into it later with the. You know what religion has evolved or devolved into in this country and what Jesus probably really valued, more than what they're teaching in churches. That he valued right. But I consider myself a member of the evangelical Lutheran Church of America and I help out at church whenever they need me. I just don't regularly attend services.
Speaker 2:Sure Does that make sense.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think, yeah, absolutely, and I think a lot of people would say that's okay. It's not a. You know, I'm not. I don't consider myself in the Christian faith anymore, but I think, like you know, church is there when you need it, and however you're celebrating that, whatever you believe, is great. So let's back up though, because I mean you have a very interesting journey, and one I'm really, really excited to hear about or excited might be the wrong word, but just intrigued so let me talk about how you grew up, because you grew up in a completely different religion.
Speaker 2:I did. I've passed through a couple of forms. So I was born in Camden, south Carolina, and I was raised in a predominantly Southern Baptist family. So there was no card playing, there was no rock and roll music, there were no games of chance. There was, you know it was. It was a pretty straightforward and stayed life. I did not like it, but I was a child, right. So what child likes being forced to go to church every Sunday and dress up, and after church we went to Oma's house for a picnic and food. Oma was a very staunch German woman, didn't speak a lot of English, loved smack me in the back of the head with a, with a wooden spoon very much child abuse as we know it now, but at that time it was abuse that was delivered with love, if that makes any sense. All I know is I didn't care for it and I but little did I know life was going to throw me a curveball, and that was when I was about seven.
Speaker 2:My mom found the Jehovah's Witnesses and boy oh boy did. I went from not wanting to go to church on Sundays to not wanting to go to church on Sundays, tuesdays or Thursdays and not wanting to go door to door on Saturdays and not wanting to go door to door on Sundays after church. It was a constant and I mean constant pressure in our in our lives. I think my mom enjoyed having a purpose. My mom was always so backing up a little bit. I grew up in a single family household. My mom raised three boys by herself and she worked her ass off. She was a welder at an electric motor factory. That was her main job. She also, in addition to that, worked as a cashier at a gas station and a certified nurses assistant at a nursing home.
Speaker 2:So much of my childhood, between the ages of about four and nine, was kind of a latchkey kid. I remember getting off the bus and letting myself into the house, and mom will have left me a note on what I had to do. My mom needed people. She had a lot of boyfriends in that time. She was constantly looking for companionship and not finding it.
Speaker 2:So I think when the Jehovah's Witnesses came around, that was kind of a way for her to latch on to something that was tangible, something that drove a relationship into her life. Because what into that point she had found the one boyfriend that she had, you know, to her surprise was abusive to me physically and that kind of torpedoed that, and she needed something and the Jehovah's Witnesses offered that and then that is where I spent from about eight or nine years old until I told them to get bent when I was right before I turned 18. And I am considered a disfellowshipped member of the Jehovah's Witnesses. When they show up at the door and I tell them that, it ends the conversation relatively quickly. But it also almost ensures that I'm going to get a phone call or a visit from one of the elders of the congregation, you know, shortly thereafter to let me know that Jehovah hasn't forgotten about me and I'm welcome to come back.
Speaker 1:But I have to do some things for that. What, what drew, I mean had. Did you ever talk to your mom about, like, what was the key thing that drew her into that, like what was what was appealing for that, and how did she get to that point?
Speaker 2:So before you and I actually started recording you, if you remember, I referred to it as a cult. My mom could not get it out of her head that what they said about their interpretation of the Bible was was just, it was the gospel. But what they believed regarding the Bible and they have a very literal translation of the Bible that they use, stopping just short of stoning people it's, it's. You just couldn't. You just couldn't tell her anything different, miles. It was like it was almost like speaking to someone with autism, in that she could only look one direction and if you tried to deviate from what she was thinking, the whole train would go off the tracks.
Speaker 2:But she loved that faith beyond anything I've ever seen. I mean, she attacked it vociferously and it was, you know, for a while. I loved it when it went sideways. For me is when I gained critical thinking skills and they didn't like that much because they more liked you know you to shut up and obey. But yeah, I never did get an answer from her. She just believes it is the truth. She believes that their Bible is the actual interpretation of the Bible and that the other versions, like the King James Version and the New International Version that they have all omitted passages or changed words and that God wouldn't like that, but it was. Yeah, they had some out there beliefs that I just couldn't bring myself to. I couldn't reconcile in my brain that a God of love would want those sorts of things.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, I mean it's interesting because I mean you call it a cult and I think it mainstream. Religious scholars are leaning more towards that and from what I've you know, I've watched a couple of documentaries on Jehovah's Witnesses and I'm no expert, but it just feels like it's they are taking away that critical thinking aspect of it, which is like a telltale sign of a cult of just like, just believe, just believe. What got her into that? Was it someone going door to door Like how?
Speaker 2:did she find it.
Speaker 2:It wasn't really it wasn't someone going door to door with her, it was someone going door to door with her sister, my Aunt Margaret, and then my Aunt Margaret you know, barbara, you need to, you need to talk to these people and then we started going and my Aunt Margaret stopped going. So I it's almost like here, hand the baton off, but it was. Yeah, she sent some door to door for you know, you need to go talk to my sister, sent them to talk to my mother and the next thing I know, I'm in church for two hours on Sunday, an hour on Tuesday and two hours on Thursday every week.
Speaker 1:That's insane. So you mentioned so seven years old. You liked it at first. What did you like about it? Like what was fun as a kid.
Speaker 2:What any kid likes about church. I made friends there and it was my. You know friends that didn't go to the same school as me, so you know friends that lived in Milton, kentucky, and Madison, indiana, and VV, indiana, and you know the surrounding small farming communities that I would never have met had I not gone to the kingdom hall. And and they were. They were good kids and it's funny now I still talk to a couple of them from time to time and and one of my closest friends will not give me the time of day because he is still, he's an elder in their congregation and and, you know, has zero use for me as a disfellowship person, but it was. I got to see my friends and that's what kept me going.
Speaker 2:And then, if you don't know this, about Jehovah's Witnesses, they have people in the congregation get up and speak often to the congregation. Tuesday night was kind of like a Bible study night. Thursday was more along the lines of Sunday. There was a church. The first hour and then the second hour was where you. You knew it was coming weeks in advance, but, for instance, they would have me get up and read a Bible verse, right, and then, as I read the Bible verse.
Speaker 2:I was to talk to the congregation about how I interpreted that verse right, whether it was right or not, but how I interpreted that verse and I am the baby of the family, I have always loved attention and I think that's where they got their hooks in me was when they said, here, read this verse, and there's 250 people in front of me and I was shaking like a dog shit in peach seeds.
Speaker 2:But the first time I did it and got through it and the number of people that came up afterwards and said, joe, you did a really good job, that was very nice, I was done, I was hooked. I actually did a Bible verse like that and you know I forget exactly what they called it, but a talk about that Bible verse at a district convention of Jehovah's Witnesses at Freedom Hall in Louisville, kentucky, in front of about 10,000 people and I was 12, I think, when I did that and that was just a rush beyond, but now I'm 52. I've never had an issue public speaking in my life and I thank them for that because that is what that got me was just absolute zero fear of speaking in public in front of large groups, small groups it doesn't matter, you can soft shoe and talk to anyone.
Speaker 1:So I assume then the door to door thing was not scary for you.
Speaker 2:Not only was it not scary when I got baptized as a Jehovah's Witness, which happened when I was 10 or 11. They make you go through a whole course to get baptized. You can't, you can't just say I profess my love of the Lord and get baptized. There's like a class you go to over and over and over.
Speaker 1:And is there an age you have to be for that?
Speaker 2:I don't recall, so any answer I would give you would be, you know, just off the top of my head. I don't. I do remember thinking, though, when they were going to disfellowship me, how upset I was that I didn't know what I was getting into when I got into it.
Speaker 1:Oh, interesting.
Speaker 2:Because one of my arguments against the the Board of Elders was you know, you baptize me at 10. That's, I'm not exactly sure that's the number, but we'll use that for conversation. You baptize me at 10. I had no idea what I was getting into, and now you're going to disfellowship me at 17, because I have determined that what you're telling me is a bunch of bullshit and you can't give me an answer. And when I dig into the questions, your answer is it is my job to just believe, and I don't know that it's got me in trouble before. I'm not doing that again. So, but yeah, it was that. That's, that's how it rolled. So the pioneering thing is so door to door every weekend. But you had the ability in the summer to be what they call the pioneer, and it was either 90 or 120 hours of door to door in three months, so either 30 hours a month or 40 hours a month, I don't remember what it was and when.
Speaker 2:I think I was 12, when they gave me the, I think you had to be 12 to be a pioneer and they offered me the option and I was all in and I remember you know I zero issues. Hi, I'd like to you know, I'd like to bring the Lord Jesus to you. Right, and it was weird because it might have been 10% of the people that were not receptive but were kind. Right, they may not have been receptive but they were nice enough to. They would sit there and listen and then they might ask a question and they would let you leave your watch tower and awake magazines with. Now we were supposed to charge, I want to say is like 50 cents that we were supposed to charge to give them the magazines, but we were all.
Speaker 2:If they don't want to pay, or if they don't have the money to pay, we give them the word of God for free. We're just looking to help offset the costs Right. I do remember as clear as day miles going up and we're in the hills of southern Indiana. We go up this long driveway to a little house. It's in the middle of the woods, middle of nowhere.
Speaker 2:I was with a Jehovah's Witness by the name of Bob Manning and he and I get out of the car and there is an older fellow sitting on the porch and he racks a shotgun and he says I ain't buying nothing. And I turned to Bob Manning and I said Brother Manning, we can get back in the car and go. And he kind of shushed me with his hand, kind of waved me off, and he goes well, now, friend, we're not selling anything. And the old man says what are you here for? And he says we are wanting to know whatever the opening they changed, like your opening. They don't want to. It's not about the good news of Jesus. It might have just been a question for that month or that week, but you know, for lack of a better term, we're just here to talk to you about our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2:And he racks it again and says you know, I've already got religion. Get your ass back in your car, head down the end of the laneway and don't come back. And I'm hand on the car door and I hear Bob Manning go. Well, now, why do you feel that way? I think and this dude is obviously not here for debate, you know and when we got back in the car and we got down to the bottom, to the road, he chastised me for giving up early and all I could think of in my little head was he had a fucking shotgun. But you know, that ends the discussion. If you've got a gun and I don't have a gun and I have no anger in my heart towards you to use a gun, even if I had one, right, let's go home. What?
Speaker 1:are we doing here? We're on his property.
Speaker 2:He doesn't want us on his property. He's racked the shotgun in our faces and told us he's going to put them in us. I don't want to meet Jesus yet. I was like, I mean, he made 80 years from now. So it was, that's, that's what it was, man, and I'll just. I'll never forget it and I made it my 90 or 120 hours, whatever it was. I made it that summer Because I remember they, the if you did it as a, as a teenager or whatever they took everybody to Kings Island, which is kind of like a Six Flags Kings Island in Cincinnati, ohio, and I made it and I got to go to Kings Island and as a kid that really had no money to his name, getting to go to Kings Island, everything paid for was you know it was a big reward for me.
Speaker 1:So yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:I was. I was glad I did it.
Speaker 1:Well, I was my. My next question for you is going to be what's the craziest story you have? Going door to door, but we got that check mark.
Speaker 2:So that is that is it, my friend shot gun racking. I'll never forget it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that I mean I don't know how you could. So you mentioned that you started to kind of fall out of it once you became to the age of critical thinking, like what, what sort of things specifically were popping up. What questions did you start to have or concerns did you have?
Speaker 2:Sure, we had a member of our congregation and I'm ashamed that I can't remember his name, but I'll just blame it on old age who had was in an automobile accident and the word was that he was possibly going to need a blood transfusion to save his life. And I remember we were all at the church and my mother was talking to a couple of the elders about it and they said well, you know, that's, that's out of the question. And his wife was there and his wife was like that's what I told him. You know, if Jehovah calls him home, jehovah calls him home. There's, I said, wait a minute. Wait a minute.
Speaker 2:I was 16 maybe it also doesn't help that at this time I found the love of a woman and you know the the sins of the flesh were gripping me, or I was gripping me tightly and thinking about it. It was. It blew my mind that this woman who loved this man was willing to let him die. Because I told you to have a very literal translation of the Bible. So in the book of Acts, chapter 15, verses 28 and 29, it talks about that you should have stained from things that are unclean or unpure, and one of the things it talks about is blood, and Charles Tay's Russell, who founded Jehovah's Witness, they used to call it Russellism. Ct Russell determined that to mean you know, no blood at all. So a blood transfusion was going against the word of the Bible.
Speaker 2:So it disturbed me and I acted out a little bit at home, because that was when I first started thinking holy shit, this is a sham, right. Why would a God that you're telling me loves us, created us in his image, wants us to be happy? Why would he want that to end, when the knowledge that he's given us to create a blood transfusion to save the life that you say is precious is not allowed when that we turn somewhere and I didn't know where, and I got into so much trouble with my mother. We were so angry with each other that she asked the elders to intervene on her behalf about my behavior, so that following Sunday, after church and after Sunday school, they came to me and they said you know, we'd like to talk to you. You know, back in whatever the room was, like the board room, and I went back there and they said your mother says you've been acting out and that you don't think that this is for you. You know, we'd like you to explain yourself. Those were his words. The guy's name was McConnell and his words were you need to explain yourself? And I said, no, you need to explain yourself.
Speaker 2:And my mom was Joey, she was pearl clutching and and my stepfather was clenching his fists and and I said that just what I just told you were created in his image. He loves us. He wants us to be loved, right? You tell me suicide is bad, that we are not respecting our body if we commit suicide, but you're allowing him to commit suicide by not accepting blood. That's two different things and you can't give me an answer. And we went around and miles. It was like I don't even know what it was, like it was arguing with a wall. Their answer was sometimes you just have to accept that it's God's will. And I just would not accept that and I finally I flipped my chair over and I walked out. And as I was walking out, my stepfather tried to grab my arm and I jerked my arm away and I said you touch me again, we're going to have it right here. And they let me go. And it wasn't long after that that they voted for me to be disfellowshipped. But I was just really really, really angry about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I mean you're at a pivotal time in your life when, like you said, you're starting to do critical thinking and if something doesn't make sense, you might not have the tools to rationalize even what the correct response of that would be. Absolutely, that guy was so tough as a kid. So you mentioned this phrase, disfellowship, a couple of times and I think I understand a little bit what it means. But, like, what specifically goes into that, like, is there like a little black book?
Speaker 2:essentially that you're on for Jehovah's Witness. You know they have these little hearings and I'm supposed to plead my case and when they, when we had the actual hearing and I was, I was basically told that I could recant what I had said and accept that the word of Jehovah was the word of Jehovah and to be followed at all costs, or I was going to be disfellowshipped. And my mom is miles, I'm not exaggerating what I say. She was sitting in the corner sobbing oh, wow. She was watching me die.
Speaker 1:How many people were in this room?
Speaker 2:10, 12, maybe I think there were seven elders, maybe there were more. And then you know my stepfather, my mom, a couple of other folks, and I said I'm sorry, brothers, I can't, I can't in good conscience, give you what you want, because I sent, you know, you tell me, lions bad and now you're asking me to lie. There's there's there's misdirection all over this thing. You know what do you guys? You know I know what you want. I'm not going to give it to you. Where does that leave us? And and they said well, that leaves it with.
Speaker 2:You're going to be disfellowshipped, which means you won't be able to talk to your friends. You know, when you come here, you'll have to sit by yourself. You know the exact opposite of what a church family is supposed to feel like, right, but that that was their decision and I honestly I don't think I was 17 when that happened, and I want to say it was in the summer I'm racking my brain here for some details that are fuzzy at this point and then I turned 18 in February and immediately joined the. I joined the United States Navy on my 18th birthday. Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:I was so ready to be done with everything about that town my mom's relationships, the past, abuses, the church, you know it. Just that town held nothing. I was a high school dropout. I had gone completely sideways in high school and I needed a fresh start. So I joined the United States Navy and got that start.
Speaker 1:Wow, did you? I mean, did you reconcile with your mom at some point, or what was that relationship?
Speaker 2:like from that point my mother.
Speaker 2:My mother was a wonderful lady and there was never anything to reconcile. What I had to put up with was every time she saw me, just eventually in the conversation, a hand on my arm. Joey, you know you're missed and you know that I want you to be with me in a paradise on earth, and you're not going to be unless you repent and you come back to the congregation and she would tear up. She was determined that she's going to be one of the people that turns the earth into a paradise, and those of us that were you know us ne'er-do-wells we're going to be cat. They don't believe in hell. They believe that hell is mankind's common grave, right. So there is no hell, because a God that loves you wouldn't torture you. You just go to sleep and you cease to exist, and then there's 144,000 anointed ones that will reign in heaven and the rest of the believers would be brought back and would be tasked with turning the earth back into the paradise. That it was when Adam and Eve were first put here.
Speaker 2:That was the belief, and so every time I saw her, it was. I really want you to come back. You know we miss you and once in a while when she'd send me a letter because I lived away or whatnot, I would get a you know so-and-so says hello, they really miss seeing you and you know, tugging it at sentimentality and heartstrings, and you know, and when we talk about it on the phone and when she'd get on it I say, mom, god, I love you so much, I owe you so much, but I am, you and I are never going to see eye to eye on faith. It's just not going to happen. So, yeah, there was not, there wasn't. She didn't hold it against me, she didn't.
Speaker 2:I do know that they pressured her to cut off ties with me all completely. Oh, really, she told me that they had pressured. You know, barbara, you know you're sinning. He's moved on, he's no longer living under your roof, so you really shouldn't fellowship with him. Disfellowship means that you know you shouldn't see him at all. And my mom was basically like, well, that is the one thing that will call me, cause me to draw a line between my faith, is I was her baby and she wasn't going to turn her back on me for all the money in the world.
Speaker 1:Wow, that sounds like a special woman. I mean to have that about a pressure, you know, and still kind of hold your hold your line there, for from a family perspective is pretty cool. So I mean this is kind of off topic, but I mean birthdays. Did you have a birthday before? I mean, did we even?
Speaker 2:I had a bar. I think I had a sixth birthday. I have a clear memory of getting a big wheel for my birthday it was called a big green machine and and I remember building a ramp in the street in front of our house and and and jumping the big wheel and wrecking it on my birthday. That is the last birthday I ever remember. So no, we didn't have birthdays. A funny story. We also were again dirt poor. I don't know how old I was, maybe 11 or 12.
Speaker 2:My mom was always a big reader and we always had a lot of books in the house. She would buy them at secondhand stores or libraries when they wanted to get rid of them. There were hundreds of books. I'm not kidding, I might have been a thousand books. There were books everywhere.
Speaker 2:And and my next door neighbor was having a birthday party and and my neighbor across the street was like you know, I'm getting him this, what are you getting him? And this was at the age where I didn't really want to talk about my faith because it was making me a little uncomfortable. But you know, and I said, oh, I'm getting him a book. So I went home and I just grabbed a book off the shelf and wrapped it, not knowing what the hell I was doing, and I took it over and we had the birthday party and he opened the gifts and when he got to my book, he kind of handed it to his mom and she's looking at it and she said I'm going to walk you home.
Speaker 2:And she brought my mother to the door and she was like you know, joey brought this over for David's birthday and my mom was mortified. She says you're not supposed to be going to birthday parties, you know this. And I said I didn't want to be left out. You know, I was eight or nine or 10 or whatever the age was. And she's like well, he gave David this book and she said you know I'm going to be going to the birthday party.
Speaker 2:And I said I'm going to be going to the birthday party. And she said I'm going to be going to the birthday party and she's like well, he gave David this book and she handed the book to my mom and my mom was like, and the book was called Looking for Mr Goodbar and if you haven't read it or if you don't know anything about it, it is, it's porn. I mean, there's no other way to put it. And here I am giving it to this 10 year old or whatever, because I wanted to have a birthday gift for him and her. His mom was just mortified and then my mom was mortified.
Speaker 3:She had forgotten, she even had it.
Speaker 2:You know she had it pre-Jove's witness days Right. Suddenly, the next thing I know she's going through all the books with a fine oh, that was gone, that was gone and I was left basically with James Harriet and encyclopedia Britannica that was the end of the book, that's hilarious, but I mean you honestly did her a favor.
Speaker 1:I don't know why we got so mad, and if she doesn't want it, you might as well give it away, right Like let the kid read it.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, he turns out. He had two kids himself. So he knew what to do. That's funny. But yeah. So no birthdays, no Christmas. No, you know any. You couldn't set aside a day for a person because in their opinion, that was putting that person above God. And I think that's why now, at 52, I still treat Christmas as if I'm eight. I absolutely love Christmas, I love decorating for it. I go absolutely batshit over the top for my kids because I didn't get it you know, and I buying them gifts.
Speaker 2:And you know the year we got Blake, it was the year the Wii came out. Blake really wanted a Wii and we just couldn't afford it. And a buddy of mine said, you know what, I've got one and I never play it. You want to give me a hundred bucks, I'll give you the Wii, the two games. I got the controllers. And we're like, yes, you know the look on his face when I mean he's got a lot of money. I mean he just about passed out. And I mean we were Mario Carton shortly after that and it was hooked for both of us. Ever since I get such a jazz at a Christmas man, I'm buying gifts for everybody and it drives Vicky nuts because she's like you know, one day we'd like to retire and have some of this money to retire. I just can't. Yeah, I go over the top now. I just can't do it, you know.
Speaker 2:I don't think we're putting us above God, it's just, let's just roll.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love that. Yeah, I think that's important for kids too. I mean doesn't have to be from religious aspect either. It's just like you know, you're important, you know, and that's. I think that's kind of what your, your background is is just making sure people feel special, which I think is so cool. All right, so we, we leave Jehovah's Witnesses, we go join the Navy. When, when did you start to find a religion again? Like what? What brought you back into the fold?
Speaker 2:August 2, 1990.
Speaker 1:Is that your wedding date? No, okay, did you make a key?
Speaker 2:Nope, that's the day Iraq invaded Kuwait. Okay. My ship was about 20 miles off the coast to Kuwait when Iraq invaded and we were general quarters and we didn't know what it was for at the time.
Speaker 2:We were just like three in the morning, all hands man your battle stations and we were there all day. And I remember sitting there, they gave you, gave us a lunch which was basically a bologna sandwich and an apple. I forget, you know, whatever we had to drink and I remember my battle station at that point was a fire station. I was, I was on a hose team for for firemen and I remember sitting there eating a sandwich and I looked to my right and there was a cannot remember his name but there was a sailor to my right and he had his eyes closed and he was mouthing something and then he crossed himself and started eating his food and I thought, so this would have been.
Speaker 2:I would have been 19 years old, I hadn't set foot in a church in three years and I thought you know, if I pray, does God care? I remember thinking that here's this guy you know, I didn't know the significance of this and he was praying fervently. And I remember thinking you know, who the hell would I pray to? Right, I haven't told God. This is where you know. I told you, before we recorded some of the confusion that I have right Stems from Christian guilt. Right, you have to go to church. You have to go to church. You have to show God you love him.
Speaker 2:You have to tithe 10% of your income to God to show him you love him. That guilt fucking pisses me off more than anything on the planet right now, because I honestly don't think God gives a shit if I ever go to church. I don't, right. I think he thinks, if you hold him in your heart and you realize what he's done for you and you treat people everybody with kindness and love and respect and you try to help those that are lesser than you, that you're doing everything God wants you to do. Right? That guilt manifested itself fully that morning. Wow, I just, it was an epiphany. It was my God. Who do I pray to? I haven't gone to church. Should I pray? Am I allowed to pray? I knew I was on some level, right, that's a stupid question or a stupid thing to think, but there was a part of me that was like do my prayers even count? And that's what's-.
Speaker 1:You went through the whole disfellowed thing. So you were not only disfellowed from your church, but through the thing that you believed in.
Speaker 2:Right, wow, and it was a kick in the knockers. It was just an absolute. Like I said, it was an epiphany. It was one of those things where you go I don't wanna die. I don't know what's happening here, I don't know if we're gonna be under attack, if I'm gonna jump on this host team real quick and be fighting a fire from a torpedo, or just no idea. At that point and I remember thinking who do I pray to? Right, and I'll tell you.
Speaker 2:What came about was once we figured out what was going on and we were in no immediate danger. First of all, you feel a little silly. You're like, oh, I was worried for nothing, but you don't know that it was nothing until you know right, you were, yeah. So I remember us getting into Bahrain, in the Middle East, and I went down to the quarter deck and I said where can I find?
Speaker 2:We had a chaplain on our ship, but it was just a dude that was Christian and would lead, you know, like non-denominational services, almost like a Bible study, if you wanted to do that. And I had not done that, but I had gone to him and I said I really wanna talk to a chaplain, someone who is educated, not in payroll disbursement, which was what this guy did, but educated in faith and theology. And I finally met one and it was cathartic. There were a lot of tears shed on my behalf, a lot of guilt that I unloaded on him, and he was awesome. We met, I don't know, two or three days in a row and then the next time we came back into port we met again. And I was talking to him one day after I had met Vicki and Vicki had told me that she was a Missouri Senate Luther and that she had gone to St John's and but I had told Arlen you know Arlen and Mary I had told Arlen and Mary that I was an agnostic.
Speaker 1:Just so for people that don't know, it's your mother-in-law and father-in-law, correct?
Speaker 2:That is correct, vic. My wife's parents and I had remembered when they were grilling me about my faith and I told them I had grown up as a Jehovah's Witness, but now I was more or less an agnostic. I remember the look on my mother-in-law's face it's what my mother-in-law yet, but you know, on her mom's face that looked like I'd basically, you know, pulled my pants down and chatted right and she says, well, I don't think you know what that is. I'm like, oh, absolutely I do. So.
Speaker 2:In talking to him he said you know what are some of the theological questions you have surrounding your faith with the Jehovah's Witnesses? And we went through the main thing, which was the blood transfusion, right, and we went through the holidays and we went through a couple of other things and I said you know, my biggest hangup is that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that there is not a triune God, that the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are just one Right. And I said no one has been able to explain to me how they can be three separate, but still be God, yeah. And he goes, oh, softball. And he started laughing and he said you ever seen a clover? And I said yeah, and he says how many leaves on a clover? I said, well, most of them are three.
Speaker 2:He says, yeah, three separate leaves, one clover, three separate entities, one God. And I went, wow, and it was such a small minor thing thinking back on it now, but it opened my eyes and I said, if you don't mind, sir, what is your faith? And he said, oh, I'm a Missouri Synod Lutheran. And I was like that's what Vicki had said. Maybe I'll try that. And then that was it. You know, I'm like, oh, I'll just come to Vicki's side and we'll start there. Wow, and so I did.
Speaker 1:That's incredible. Just the trajectory of that is fascinating to me. What are your memories just about being at? So we went to a church called St John's where my dad was a pastor. It's evangelical Lutheran church, missouri Synod, which is what you're referring to. But I mean, what do you have any memories of that place now that you're not there? Anything that sticks out, oh God lots.
Speaker 2:What are you looking for specifically? That was a very pivotal time in my life, right, I was in my mid-20s to early 30s. I went through classes with Pastor DeQuinn and his beautiful wife to become a Missouri Synod Lutheran. I taught Sunday school at that church. I became the oh, what did they call it? The guy that counts the money? I forget.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, I know you're talking about. You know what?
Speaker 2:I'm talking about that guy. I became that guy. So I was on. What's that?
Speaker 1:I can't remember. I know there's a term for it.
Speaker 2:So I became that guy and was with the board there, met your dad, fell in love with your dad and your mom immediately. We used to have this couple's Bible study with your dad and mom, vicki and I, kent and Sherry Hoffman old friends and then there were five or six other couples but we kind of peeled off and started this monthly dinner club. So we would just go out every month to a different restaurant and just eat and drink and have a good time. I remember when I first became disillusioned with organized religion at that church and they had an associate pastor there I'm not gonna say his name, but he was a farmer out in Rochelle and he was kind of your dad's right hand man. We had had a function at church and it was an election year, so this would have been 96. Yeah, maybe 2000.
Speaker 1:I think we were there. We got there around 2000. So it had to been. It would have been in 2000.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 2000 election and the topic came around to who are you gonna vote for? And they asked me and I said, well, I'm voting for Al Gore. And they said why would you vote for Al Gore? And I said well, because he cares about this planet that God has given us and wants to do some things to reverse what we've screwed up over the centuries. And I had some other things, but what struck me was that pastor. I turned the question to him. I said, well, who are you voting for? Because he seemed astounded that I would vote for Al Gore. And he said, well, I'm voting for George Bush. And I said why? And he said because George Bush is against abortion.
Speaker 2:And I said, well, okay, what else? And he said that's it, that's the only thing, that's the only thing to care about. And I said so. We're not supposed to care about the poor, we're not supposed to care about the earth that God has given us. We only care about a woman's medical procedure. And again, you would have thought I dropped my chores and chat on the floor. He was mortified and angry and he went zero to bat shit In a heartbeat. And that's when I went. And you're a man of God, right, and that's when my faith started to waiver.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's totally fair. I could talk to you about the 2000 election and the abortion issue for probably two hours. Yeah, exactly, exactly. I'll tell you what I mean. The the first time that I ever had a question about cuz, I mean when I was Growing up, and I mean church is just kind of what you did. My dad was a part of the church and there's just like that. You know that's just part of my life and what we did.
Speaker 1:But the first time that I was ever like this this doesn't seem right was when I think it's your sister-in-law was going to be married to another woman and it was a different church. Obviously, our church at the time was like very much so against gay marriage and my mom wanted to go. And I remember my dad he's mortified at this fact now but I remember my mom and dad arguing about your sister-in-law's wedding because he said I can't show my face there because of my job, and that was the first time. I was like that's really fucked up. I will tell you I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, that was it go ahead.
Speaker 2:Um, that started that wedding was the beginning of the end of our relationship with St John's, was but not that wedding Earlier than that? Sure. So Vicki's sister Says to Vicki, one day, can we go out and have dinner? I've got something I want to tell you. And, and you know, vicki left the house that night. Basically, yeah, I know what this is right. Well, but we can.
Speaker 2:She's finally, you know, come in terms with it, let's you know, sure and it was. She came out to Vicki and Vicki was like duh, and we love you anyway and we don't give a shit, right? Well, not long after that she told her parents and and Arlen and Mary, of course, were just, they weren't tough conversation and what sucked was they didn't hesitate to tell everybody in the congregation.
Speaker 1:Oh, I had no idea.
Speaker 2:Here's what I remember. I remember going to church on a Sunday with Tracy and and us having a Church it's good time. And then I remember, like two weeks later, going back to church and those same people that two weeks before would have come up to Tracy and been like oh, it's so lovely to see you. Not a peep.
Speaker 1:Oh, nobody breaks my heart.
Speaker 2:Nobody talked to her, and that's when I realized this is too conservative for what I believe. And then it only got worse after the fire.
Speaker 2:Yep and that's when things really went south with your dad. Yeah, I was on the board for redesigning the I don't know what they call it the, basically the kitchen and the fellowship hall. I was part of the board for that and and we had a Conversation regarding, you know, this should only be women, is what I was told in this board meeting. Women have run the kitchen at st John's forever and it needs to only be women. And I'm like well, you know, I've got a culinary degree, I've done some restaurant design work. I feel like I have something I could offer, um, but if you don't want me here, that's fine. Um, and and it more from that into why don't they allow women to preach? What is what? Is this wire women lesser than men in this thing? Um, I, I have yet to meet a woman I didn't think was smarter than damn near every man I've ever met in my life. And and why are we hamstringing ourselves like this? Um, and and that, those three things right, the, the unwelcomeness I felt in that committee, the way they treated Tracy when, when her true self came to light, and the fact that there were never gonna allow, and I remember, I Remember talking to your dad about it. I don't know if he will ever remember this conversation. It was such a small moment in time, but I Express to him that I was struggling with my faith as a friend not as a pastor, you know, but as Joe to Don, you know and and he told me that he would rather be a member of a church that stood for something and had values and values that mattered right. Then a church that went. You know what, if you ask for forgiveness, everything will be forgiven, right, and I saw that as well on some level. But that's when it occurred to me that God doesn't care about any of this nonsense. He just cares that you're kind and that you take care of those people that are suffering and poor and and hungry, and those that that are less fortunate than ourselves. Do that and and you're there, you're doing exactly what he wants you to do, and and that, yeah, that ended that relationship.
Speaker 2:We went to an evangelical Lutheran church first Lutheran in in DeKalb, and then Bethlehem Lutheran, and and we loved that vibe, we loved what they preached, we loved that, you know, except Jesus into your heart, and and everything's gonna be alright. And and we've just, we've never left, because that's where we have felt most at home. We did first Lutheran for a little bit. The congregation was too large. We went to Bethlehem Lutheran for the pastor who was a lot like your dad, very outgoing Love that man. But he went on to bigger things with the Senate. And one day Blake says you know it was time for confirmation. And Blake said Can, can I do confirmation at Salem? I have friends that go there and we were like sure. So we called Salem up and they said of course he's welcome, everybody's welcome. And and we said you know great. And and we've been there ever since. So Blake was 11, so we've been there 10 years, I guess.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, that's good. I mean good for you guys honestly, for for I guess, recognizing that and and Doing something about it, I think a lot of people stay. I mean, there's a lot of people that you know my mom is one of them honestly where it's just like you know you talking about the ladies in the kitchen Like my great-grandma was one of those ladies.
Speaker 1:She certainly was the, the lineage that we have in that church is still ingrained in her and she's not able to to give that up. Because of that, that connection, and if you have the connection, it's tough. And so I mean good on you guys for sticking to your values. No, no matter the values of the church. I think that's amazing and I tell you what, like hearing that story about my dad and what he said to you Uh, he is gonna, he's gonna be so mortified that he was even Speaking in that way about something that's so personal to somebody else like he today he's a completely different person and and he would just, he would be mortified. I don't have another word for it. I mean it's incredible to see that transition.
Speaker 2:That makes me sad, because I would not want your dad. I didn't take it poorly, I don't think it's sad.
Speaker 1:I I don't think it's sad. I think it's it's a good view of something that's gone through transition transition, whether it's yourself, whether it's my dad, whether it's me Knowing that you can grow and you can look back on your former self and be like, oh you know, whether or not it's it's like you said, what you said. It can be mortifying and also good at the same time. And so when I say that, I say it with like a tinge of you know, humility and and and you know kind of the, the funny that comes out of that, but also like it's awesome too to see where he's at today and know just how Down the rabbit hole he was From that religion is is extremely interesting and I think you just hit the nail on the head.
Speaker 2:You're going. You see your dad all the time. I haven't seen the man in years and then it was only for five minutes. You know, I remember I have not seen your dad with any regularity since I dropped him off at rehab and I remember dropping, taking out that yeah, I bailed him out, you know, and and drove him out there, and, and, and I hugged him and I said anything you need, dude, you know the things that are going on with you right now, they don't matter.
Speaker 4:Right what the way the man was treated I'll never forgive. I can't yeah from my in-laws. We turned our back on a man that was hurting and there's not a day that goes by that I don't feel a little bit of guilt about that.
Speaker 1:No, I don't think so, man. I think that the world is very, very different from when my dad had his struggles to where it is now, where talking about things like addiction addiction 10, 15 years ago was you know it's, it's the. I think there's a community that says it's the only disease that you can get yelled at for having. If you have cancer, no one's going to yell at you. If you have alcoholism, you're going to get yelled at, you know. And I think that understanding, understanding that and understanding how far we've come, is important.
Speaker 1:And like, dude, you did so much, man, like like there was no one else at that time that could do the things that you had done to help him. And even doing those things that might seem little to you were massive for him and for our family. He might still be in jail. Honestly, you know like we didn't have the resources to go do. And, for those that don't know, like he had 3DYs in a month. At that time in Illinois, you had 3DYs in a month. You went to jail. And so I think that I understand that guilt, but also like it's the times are different, man, like they just are.
Speaker 2:I get it, I get it, I just. But it goes back to the whole thing with Tracy, yeah.
Speaker 1:Oh, totally yeah.
Speaker 2:God wants us to love those, to love everybody. Right, and I get it. People were angry at your dad for the way he conducted himself and the way he, the way that that disease manifested itself in his actions. I completely understand that, but you don't. You know, I've been angry at my son before, but I will never turn my back on him. I'm not going to do it, you know, no matter how bad it would get, not? You know, he's a great kid, it's never been bad.
Speaker 2:But I just can't imagine turning my back on someone that I care about, regardless of the struggle and I do. I feel like dropping him off and hugging him and saying if you need anything, we're here, and then basically dropping out of his life was a failure on my part, because I should have. You know, you make time for things that are important, miles. I've made time for my kids for years. I should have made more time for those friends that mattered to me, but something in your brain goes well. They're fighting something else that you're not going to help with. Let them get through that and before you know it, fucking 30 years have gone by and then you've done nothing.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, again do. You did a lot I want to I want to.
Speaker 1:I want to reemphasize that and I think I hope that you're able to come to a point someday where you, you can recognize how much you helped myself, my mom, my sister and also my dad, and you know, maybe he needed that. You know, honestly, like he, the rock bottom thing is not a it's not a euphemism. It's like you have to hit rock bottom and even after he was in that situation that he's in that, wasn't it like he's still, there was still further to go.
Speaker 1:And sometimes yeah, sometimes you just need people to. Sometimes it just is a wake up call man. You know whether or not you have like his support can only go so far, like I've had it up to here with him several times in my life and we've talked about that at length with him and I. So I think I hope you can get to a point where you don't feel that guilt, because it again, the amount that you did was immense for sure.
Speaker 2:I don't know that it's guilt as much as it's anger, and it's anger, that's fair.
Speaker 1:That's fair.
Speaker 2:At the church. For you know, turning their back on somebody who needed them, even though he's totally you know shit on him, that's you know what he did wasn't good, we all get that, but you turn your back on him. Yeah, you know, you're people of God. Jesus is all about forgiveness and help and redemption and all of those things. And you said, fuck, that, this guy's pissed me off, I'm not doing it Right, and that makes me angry. And I think what then, when I turn the anger on myself, is I let it happen?
Speaker 2:I was you know, and Jesus wants us to be me Great. I was too meek. I should have stood up and said you're all hypocrites, fuck you. And I didn't. I don't know why I didn't Maybe I was angry, I don't know but you know you're another. You know it's not guilt I love your father to this day If he called me right now and said hey, joe, I need to talk to you. Can we go grab a bite to eat? I, yes, let me get my shoes on. You know where am I meeting you, but you know water under the bridge, as they say.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, I mean it's to see the emotion coming out and you just speaking about my dad is. I mean that's awesome in and of itself and I appreciate you as a person. I mean so I don't want to. We spent a lot of time on my dad.
Speaker 2:I want to talk about that all the time you need.
Speaker 1:So where, where are you today? So we talked about, you know the anger that we've got with. You know the church that we were at, the church that my dad was a pastor at, to a point where you know your son has said, hey, salem is a place where my friends are. It jives with where we are, you know, from a socially and politically, you know family, whatever it might be like your faith today, though, where does that? What does that look like for you?
Speaker 2:So I have to talk about a couple of things. Then. Thing one would be my daughter, abby. I don't know if you've ever met her. I know we're friends on Facebook, you may see.
Speaker 1:I've seen the progression yeah.
Speaker 2:So when she was eight days old she suffered a stroke and that was in that, in that time period where I was more angry at church than anything. So I really, you know, we hadn't found a whole lot, I was kind of a wayward boat. And so she has this stroke. We don't know it's a stroke at the time. We just know that she keeps stopping breathing and we get her into the ambulance and we get her to Kishawaki Hospital and right in front of us her breathing stops and her heart stops. So they call a code and I remember turning to Vicki because there were 15 people in that room in seconds. And I remember turning to say something to Vicki but she had slid down the wall and she was on the floor silently crying. The anguish was strong. They didn't realize we were in the room. So they're like when the head guy, the head doctor, realizes that he's like what in the hell are the parents doing in here? Right, Get them out of here. So they came and they took us to the chapel and we're sitting in the chapel it's so quiet.
Speaker 2:And I remember looking at this, just circling back to, you know, August 2, 1990, I look at Vicki and she has got her hands in front of her and she is just praying her ass off Yet again. Who do I pray to? Right, I'm so angry at all this other stuff. I'm fighting battles for Tracy. I'm fighting battles internally for your dad, I'm fighting battles for myself and what I see is injustice or wrong and I'm like I got to give it something right. So I classed my hands and I said you know, listen, dude, we don't have the best relationship. It's pretty hot and cold and I know you probably hear from people all the time asking you for help that don't deserve it, and I probably don't deserve it. But I'm not asking you for me, I'm asking you for her.
Speaker 2:And about 45 minutes later a doctor came in the door and he says we got her back. Oh, my God, she's too small for us to take care of. So we're going to fly her to children's. You guys can't ride with her. It's a flight nurse. You know the baby, the pilots, they're taking her to Wheaton. You know, get there when you get there, just get there safely, and we'll go from there. And I remember, not long ago again having a little bit of a crisis of faith and Vicki looking at me saying I saw you praying who were you praying to? And it occurred to me that he's always been there in my life and I know he's there. I don't know how he works, I don't truly know what he wants, but you know what, If I can help in any way, I will. And so that took us a little bit closer to church. Now, our church, now Salem Lutheran in Sycamore, right across from Culver's, we have a pastor, Preston Fields, who is in a committed and loving relationship with another man. Oh wow, I know it is.
Speaker 2:That is not something that St John's ever would have allowed. Obviously right, and he's fucking wonderful. He makes me want to go to church, right. That guilt comes when I don't go. I haven't been to church in months, but he makes me want to go. I can't justify not going. I'm off on weekends now. There's nothing stopping me from going. If I want to go to church, I just don't, and I don't know why, and the guilt resurfaces, but now it's more of guilt of.
Speaker 2:I really want to see Preston. You know I want to. When he preaches it. He makes me happy, he, he, he has stories to tell and he's got life experiences that I find really interesting and I cannot for the life of me understand why I don't go more often. But there it is. I mean, when we go to church, we go to Salem, we're happy there. There's, you know, we have no doctrinal issues there's, there's nothing. You know there's always going to be those little interchurch politics that you, that you say, but I'm not in the church enough to to have felt those yet. And very weird, by the way, I you look just like your father when you're sitting behind that microphone and like, oh my God, I'm talking to Don, but so so we're there.
Speaker 2:Abby is getting confirmed in September. It was a good three years and, like I said, I was one of her group leaders last year. They want me to be a group leader this year. Vicki and I are arguing. She doesn't want me to do it. She's like you don't have the time and I'm like what else am I going to do on a Wednesday night for?
Speaker 3:hours.
Speaker 2:But yeah, it's a good church. I do worry about churches because attendance just keeps. You know, I think more and more people are. You know, if they're, these small churches are dying out and instead you're getting, you know, 20,000 congregants at these mega churches where it's. You know God hates gays and abortion is murder and you know all the stupid nonsense. I know to be untrue and that that concerns me. But yeah, we are happily at Salem and I really would like to make we'll make an effort to go a little bit more often, because when I leave church I feel pretty good about myself, no matter what else is going on. I tend to leave church in a much more positive frame of mind than I was when I went into church.
Speaker 1:Sure yeah, absolutely Like a therapy session able to keep your mind and learn a little bit yeah.
Speaker 2:I like that.
Speaker 1:Like meditation. You know it's just a meditative session.
Speaker 2:That's right, and that's that's where we're at, brother, that's what we do.
Speaker 1:I love that. Wow, this was absolutely amazing. You gave me more than I ever thought I would get out of your story. Oh, you underestimated me. I think I estimated you just fine. I just think that you're just a great storyteller, number one and number two like to to see your journey and know the heartache you've experienced, the trouble you know at a young age, and just to see where you're at today. I mean you're just such a joyful person. That's amazing, regardless of if we're going to disagree on religion in the future, if we have more conversations. But I just I love talking to you and I'm sad it took us this long to get together.
Speaker 2:Well, it will not take us this long to get back, because I will. I will reach out to you to play some golf. We'll try to get out before the season ends this year.
Speaker 1:Are you in? No, I'm actually up in Madison, Madison, Wisconsin. Oh, so not too far away. Oh, you do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's right on State Street, right down on campus.
Speaker 1:Right on, don't say the name, don't say the name.
Speaker 2:I won't yeah, blur all that out. But yeah, I will. Next time I'm going up there, man, I'll text you and see, I'll just throw my sticks in the trunk and maybe I can be there in the morning and you and I can hit some in the afternoon.
Speaker 1:Hawks Landing Golf Course is where I belong, so I'll take you up there and we'll have a day.
Speaker 2:Let's do it, brother. I'm all about that life.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Well, thank you again for doing this, joe. All the best to you and your family, and we'll definitely be seeing more of each other.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you, my friend. Have a great day.
Speaker 1:Thanks, man. Another huge, huge thank you to Joe Ross for coming on, sharing his story and being vulnerable. It was just a fascinating conversation to have with him. Next week, our guest is Reverend Preston Fields. Here's a sneak peek.
Speaker 3:That's the basic thing about being a pastor. I mean there's a lot of boring administrative things that I do, there's a lot of really intense things that we do. I'm coming off If I look a little tired. I've had a string of funerals in the last two weeks that have just been really hard. But as much as it's hard, it's a privilege to be there. Then I get to baptize babies and witness weddings and celebrate with people as well.
Speaker 3:Being worship, the sacraments that's the very core of my identity and I'm called a minister of word and sacrament. If all else fails, that's what I do Preach the word and help facilitate the sacraments. But then everything else. I met my husband I had been not out while I was working in the youth ministry, for sure and finally met this person that I started thinking, gosh, this might be who I spend the rest of my life with. I actually went to a Catholic church that was kind of progressive and I would say if I hadn't been called a ministry and I had stayed in Knoxville, this one particular parish probably would have welcomed me and my family. But I had this extra piece where I was being called to ministry. So, anyway, I started doing that that's next time.
Speaker 1:On Finding my Religion, A reminder if you haven't already subscribed, rated or reviewed the show, please do so. It helps others find the show and lets me know if we are doing the right thing for your ear balls. See you next week.
