Finding My Religion
We're a podcast that asks the question, "What do you believe?" We talk with people to find out how they grew up, what they think about today, and where they think they'll be in the future. Faith, religion, and spirituality are all such personal journeys. We're honored to be able to tell people's stories, no matter the belief.
Finding My Religion
Tim Whitaker: "The New Evangelicals"
Tim’s personal story continues as we delve into the impact of Christian Nationalism, the power dynamics within white evangelicalism, and the looming shadow of social media on faith. His courage in founding 'The New Evangelicals', despite fearing the audacious name, is testament to the strength of his conviction. He shares his struggle of leaving his church, the friendships lost and the tension of creating boundaries in his personal life.
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myles@findingmyreligionpod.com
Welcome to a brand new season of Finding my Religion. My name is Miles Phelps. Alright, two things before we jump into episode two. Number one as a reminder, we're using adult language this year, so if you have kids in the car, they might learn something. And number two stick around at the end of the show because I'm going to give you a sneak peek into episode three. Alright, we are back. I have a very special guest today. I've been really excited about this. We've had this on the schedule for like a month almost. Tim Whitaker is joining me right now and he is the host of a podcast called the New Evangelicals. You have an organization called the New Evangelicals and we'll get into what that's about. But first of all, thanks for doing this, man. This is awesome. I reached out to you kind of on a whim on TikTok and you were nice enough to get back, and here we are, of course, I mean any chance for the talk to someone.
Speaker 2:I always try and make time for it, so I totally get it.
Speaker 1:Greatly appreciated. So where to start? I have so many questions. I guess the first is like where are you even located?
Speaker 2:I live outside of Philadelphia in New Jersey, about 10 minutes from Philly in what we call South Jersey for folks who know about the Jersey culture. So that's where I'm at right now.
Speaker 1:Right on. So where I always, this is probably going to be a little bit different just because of your involvement with your projects, which I want to talk about. But personally, I mean, what is, what's your faith today as it stands?
Speaker 2:Complicated. Yeah, I mean I am someone who is definitely what I would self describe as a Jesus follower. My allegiance is to Jesus as much as humanly possible, so that would put me in the Christian tradition. But I also know that that word Christian or evangelical is so loaded these days usually with negative connotations rightfully so. But yeah, I would definitely say I'm still a Christian. But I think it looks very different than how I grew up and what it means now versus five, six, seven, 10 years ago. Sure.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about that, the journey. I mean what. I mean, like I said, we don't know each other at all, so we're going to get to know each other over the next 45 minutes to an hour here. But I mean what? What did you grow up believing in? Like, what was the? What was the way to be?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I grew up in a man. It's tough to. It's tough to describe for people who don't know. I'm not sure what your audience is, but I like the makeup of your audience or their experience. But I grew up maybe the best way to put it would be like a very John MacArthur type theology. John MacArthur's are pretty well known theologian, very conservative, very reformed in his beliefs. He holds a belief that's called Calvinism, the idea that God has essentially predestined people to go to heaven or hell. That's the, the boiled down version. So I grew up in a very fundamentalist household like that.
Speaker 2:I was homeschooled for nine years, always in church. My parents got saved right before they got married. They met in church and then they had me pretty quickly. So they kind of went from one extreme in a lifestyle before being saved to kind of the other extreme of what happens often, where you want to get away from maybe an unhealthy lifestyle. That was a, and now you're in this more conservative lifestyle. So that's how I grew up. You know him's only church until I was 11, that kind of vibe, but always in the church, always committed to being a Christian my whole life. But my paradigm was very much there and then, through a lot of other experiences, I got involved with more Pentecostal traditions and got really committed to my faith.
Speaker 1:So what? What would be the difference for? So yes, about the listenership. So the goal of this is to talk with people from all different backgrounds, all different faiths. I'm sure most of my listeners are going to come from like people that I know and I grew up with that, that know a little bit about the Christian faith. But what would be the difference between, like a Pentecostal, you know faith versus like what you grew up in?
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, sure. So there are two I would say easy differences to start out with. One is called the belief in what's known as cessationism, the idea that the Holy Spirit doesn't work through things like speaking in tongues or physical healing. So people who are more reformed would say, hey, that was that happened back then, it's not for today. So speaking in tongues isn't real. Speaking in tongues for again for your audience, to give you one more layer beyond that is the idea that the Holy Spirit speaks through you in like an unknown language. It sounds like gibberish, but but you know God can understand it. And sometimes there's what they call an interpreter who would give the interpretation with that person uttered.
Speaker 2:That's a very Pentecostal thing, that is not a reform thing and they fight over that. The other one is also women in pastoral leadership. So a lot of people, more reform camps, believe in what they call a complementarian approach, where men are called to be leaders, men are called to be pastors but women are not and they are forbidden from taking leadership over men. And then in Pentecostal traditions that's not a thing, I would say it's still as patriarchal in a lot of ways. But they would say of course a woman can lead. Of course a woman can be in pastoral ministry. They would never have a problem with that, got it.
Speaker 1:So grew up evangelical. So my background I should probably have told you this before we started recording but my dad was a pastor growing up. So he's a Lutheran Church, missouri Synod, ok, and so the idea of no one's pastors like definitely rings true to my childhood. Like no gaze, like all the, all the stuff that conservative religion goes for. Like that's, that's where I grew up and so, yeah, that relates. So talk to me about like what happens. Like you say you grow up in this faith like were you like bought in or was it just something that, like you just did?
Speaker 2:Oh no, I was bought in since day one. Like I tell people that I was radicalized by my tradition and that ship has sailed. Like I, my work even today is a further radicalization of my faith in Jesus. It just looks very different than how I interpreted that back then. You know, I'm not sure like how. The problem with my story is that there are just a lot of layers to it that are you kind of need to unpack. But I can give you a few cliff notes of kind of how I got here and if anything peaks your interest, we can unpack it further. Essentially, what you need to know is that I never rebelled. I never was into things that were you know what most parents were scared of for their Christian kids. And I never got into drugs. I waited to have sex until I was married. Like I really was like someone who wanted to follow the way of Jesus, and I did that by being a part of this tradition that we now know as evangelicalism. So I did it all. I did power church ministry. So I worked for an organization called Child Evangelism Fellowship, which is like a ministry that tries to essentially get boys and girls saved through, like these backyard five day clubs are called. I did that as a teenager. That's been my whole world for a long time.
Speaker 2:And when I was 19, I took an overseas mission strip to Europe. I was in Belgium, finland and Germany for a month in each country, and that was the beginning of of me really rethinking church and what it meant to be a church. I was already kind of starting to have some suspicions of like I'm not sure if this event is the best way to do it. And there's this book by a guy named Frank Viola called Pagan Christianity and I read that while I was overseas along with a book by Shane Claiborne called Irresistible Revolution and Pagan Christianity. The whole book is pretty much like hey, our modern church construct is completely borrowed from pagan culture and not at all biblical. And so I'm reading this and I'm like am I allowed to Christian your podcast? I'm like, holy shit, like this, you know the church building is it wasn't in the earliest churches that we have, like that, formed later on. Holy shit, even like the church structure was brought from pagan culture. The podium is pagan. So I'm like this 18 year old already, pretty like I'm all in, I want the true gospel. And now I'm reading this book and I'm like it's all a sham. You know, like the church, oh my God, like it's not biblical. So I'm doing that.
Speaker 2:I'm in Belgium at the time, working with the church that met in small groups all around Brussels. So now, so my whole paradigm is just being shifted so quickly, right, and this church also met in bars around the city and I remember telling my friend when we were in Finland heading to Brussels I don't know, bro, like they meet in bars, like alcoholists served in bars, so like that's just kind of like how I, that's how I was since the beginning and through a lot of twists and turns, I kind of continued on that path and I was part of a really beautiful community called 11th hour. That was not a church, it was just like 35 young adults who were, who were like this, who were hungry to understand the gospel and to practice real community. And we were at that time in our lives where you have the most amount of freedom with the least amount of responsibility. So I could work part time at Starbucks and have all day to hang out with people. So we were like let's be like the Axe church as much as possible, let's form deep community and friendships and we did for like five years I mean hanging out all the time all kinds of things whether it was extended worship services that we held on our own or random Starbucks hangouts or movies these became like my people and they really deeply formed what is possible for a church to be committed to each other in community. So I've always been kind of pushing back, even before I started New Evangelicals, even when I was still very conservative with, like you know, queer inclusion or just other things, maybe how I handled abortion, etc. But I was always critical of the church, always like, ah, this, this event centered thing is taking the place of what should be a community centered approach. So all this happens and then, long story short, skipping a lot of stuff. I'm playing drums in the church doing that.
Speaker 2:Then, essentially, 2016 happens and when Trump came on the scene, that was the moment for me where I was like, okay, I've smelled some stinky things in the past in my church culture that I was able to maybe ignore or say. Nothing's perfect. I understand that, but when the people who raised me on this purity culture, ethic of don't touch yourself or have sex until you're married, are now mad at me because I can't vote for the guy on the cover of Playboy who's bragging about sexually assaulting women. Something is wrong, because they're the ones who taught me never to capitulate on these values and now they're mad at me for not capitulating on these values. So Trump was really the beginning of me thinking I don't know what, but something isn't right. Like Reddler, you know, redd alarm, something is wrong.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, you know, george Floyd happened. Breonna Taylor happened, a mod Arbery happened. Now I'm rethinking the whole race conversation based on what I was taught, which was also a steady diet of conservative talk radio. So all that's in my psyche. But then I see the video of George Floyd or the video of a mod Arbery and I'm like whoa, this look, something is wrong. And then people in my own tradition are sending me like right wing talking points. You know well, maybe a mod was armed, maybe George Floyd was a criminal. And it's like, first off, a mod was not armed, that was fake. And number two, who gives a shit? If he was a criminal, he doesn't deserve to die the way he died. Like the police are not judging jury, like this is, this is basic one, oh one, you know justice shit. And then, of course, covid happened. Covid happened where I'm watching again people in my own tradition sending me like this was a pandemic.
Speaker 2:You know, masks are tyranny and I'm like, what the hell?
Speaker 2:Like I'm still serving in my church, I'm still part of the church here, I'm still doing my thing, but I'm thinking it's not that crazy to wear a mask for the sake of loving your neighbor, because we don't know how deadly this thing is, we don't know how it spreads.
Speaker 2:Like why, as Christians, are we not the first people to run and put on seven masks? If it helps save a life, like this, is what we do, right. So COVID was the moment for me where I thought for the first time, sitting on my porch like an old man in my rocking chair, thinking to myself we need a new evangelical movement. Like something isn't right. And I started that account on Instagram in December 2020, still serving at my church, not knowing about terms like deconstruction or the evangelical movement. I had no idea. I found that after I started the work and then, a few months later, my church gave me an ultimatum you know, either stopped serving with them as a drummer or stopped doing this work online. And I chose to stop serving as a drummer, and now I do this work full time.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's incredible. It feels like, so my dad, former pastor, is kind of going through where I feel like started to go through what he believes around the same time as you and it was 2016. And that's kind of all the things that you just mentioned are things that he's brought up coming from his evangelical teachings that he went through. Do you feel like there is I mean, you had to. I mean you've grown so popular online that like there had to have been this void where a lot of people were thinking the same exact things all at once? Is that kind of what you found in going through this project?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, first off, it's very kind of you to say I'm popular online. Also very weird because I literally just walked into this shit Like I didn't have some like 10 step plan to do what I'm doing now. But literally, yeah, I mean so like, okay, here's what I did. I took my personal Instagram page, which was just videos of my GoPro footage from drumming in church. That's all it was. I had like 1800 followers, maybe 2000 followers, so not that many and I said you know what? I'm just gonna take it over, I'm gonna call the new evangelicals, do a revamp and just see what happens.
Speaker 2:I was kind of, I was freaking scared. I mean, calling yourself the new evangelicals is pretty damn audacious, especially when you are a nobody Like I. You know my dad wasn't some mega church pastor. I have no clout in these spaces. I'm just some rando dude from New Jersey. That's literally how this started. So I make I turn my account over to new evangelicals. I lose like 400 followers. I'm like, oh my God, wrong decision, which is turns out it's normal people, you know, unfollowing on follow accounts all the time. I make this video and I'm just like I'll cherry. You know I'll cherry, or you know what do they call it like clear?
Speaker 1:out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, cheery out, whatever. I'm just like, hey guys, like my name's Tim and this is the new evangelicals. And yeah, I was like, essentially I'm just wondering, is anyone else out there like worried about this stuff or thinking about it? And within, like once the algorithm picked up on what I was doing, it just brought me to all the people and I'm like, oh shit, I am late to the party. I'm like, yeah, okay, glad to know I'm not alone in this, right, and that's when I discovered the term deconstruction.
Speaker 2:And that's when I realized that, like, the term deconstruction is not people call it a movement. It's not a movement, it is definitely an explosion, because the deconstruction space is so all over the place regarding where people land. So a lot of us like have the same problem, right, but where we end up, not the same place. I think that we are one of the not the few, but we're. I think that overall, we're a more minority type of count, in the sense of we say openly we are still committed to Jesus, we are still very much Christian and we wanna explore beyond the basement. So, yeah, you're absolutely right. It was a moment of like, oh, I'm not alone, like, thank God, I'm not alone, but also that is concerning yeah, yeah, extremely concerning.
Speaker 1:I mean, how do you it for me, like, when I look back, I mean I have friends that fall into that camp still and we're still really, really close. But it bothersome when you have those things that you've talked about, the things like the conflictions that happen when you're talking about a president that admits on tape that he sexually assaulted but you can't have sex before marriage, Like those things don't jive together. How do you square those two things? And in terms of like why people are so entrenched in that type of belief, Like where does that come from?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know, we are now in 2023, the man who was sexually assaulting women and bragging about it on camera is now being indicted again for, you know, trying to overthrow our democracy.
Speaker 2:So obviously white evangelicalism as an institution, as a thing, has so much egg on its face for throwing so much of their weight behind this person, who has only proved to be more immoral and unethical and more un-Christian than we've ever imagined, right? So and that's a really fair question is like I don't get it. I mean, how do we have people who maybe in the pews, are super nice and maybe they even give the charity right and they want to help the person down the street, and then they're on Facebook like these commies are taking over and the demo rats, and you know it's like who, whoa, whoa, whoa. What's going on? And you know I do a lot of work in this space trying to understand. I've talked to a lot of people who are experts in this stuff and my basic takeaway and this is broad, I mean we have to assume we're talking in broad strokes. Not every white evangelical thinks this or even is aware of this.
Speaker 2:But once you start digging into the history of the moral majority that's what Jerry Falwell started in the 80s. That really made like the culture wars a thing we have to be pro-life, we have to fight against the Democrats you realize that a lot of it is almost a Trojan horse. So on the outside is, oh, family values, christian principles, biblical worldview. On the inside is power and control. It's the idea that the nation is ours, it's no one else's. We're losing control of our nation and we have to regain control and make it Christian again. You know, this is why we call it Christian nationalism. So these are the important undercurrents that support the whole thing.
Speaker 2:When you hear someone talk about family values, it's not about family values. If it was, they'd be voting for a minimum wage increase. They'd be voting for affordable housing, affordable healthcare. They'd be thinking about wow, if there are single moms out there who are struggling to afford childcare so they can work, maybe we should think about ways to give people affordable childcare. But they're not. They're not thinking about that. They're talking about how the queer people are coming to groom your kids, which is complete propaganda, right? So the language is code, for how do we maintain the power and the control that we've had and the cultural influence that we had, and now that a lot of them are losing that, because statistically, christian nationalists are in the minority, they are not winning the culture wars. In fact, they're only showing how dangerous they are and how much they need to lose them.
Speaker 2:In my opinion, they will fight harder and harder and they will capitulate any sense of integrity or value in order to maintain or put someone in a place of power who will give them that sense of this person is fighting for us. That's my best summarization of the problem.
Speaker 1:Do you feel optimistic With what? Well, what you just said in terms of power is not disheartening for me to hear. You know what I mean. So is there any any just optimism with like how do we combat this in a way that isn't going to like make me not talk to an uncle anymore Like how? Like what's next outside of like what you're doing right now? And like do you feel like there is going to be a day where the power is relinquished or people are able to like have the blinds taken off their eyes? It just it seems so entrenched right now, like it's so deep-seated.
Speaker 2:Yep, well, that's because it is deep-seated. I mean, you can go back to the days of segregation and look at what Bob Jones Sr was saying from the pulpit that the Bible is clear, the races must stay separate. And if you don't believe that you're a liberal. I mean these talking points are not new. I think it's important for your audience to understand that this is deep-seated and this comes back down to white supremacy. This comes back to whiteness, this comes back to all that kind of stuff. And if you want receipts, read the books. The Bible told them so.
Speaker 2:By J Russell Hawkins preparing for war, by Bradley Onishi it's all there. Like this is not new. The color of compromise by J Martinisby Jesus and John Wayne by Kristen Dumay. They these are historians, these are people who have done the work to bring you what is actually going on here. So I think, before we talk about solutions, let's just get honest with ourselves. Right? It's a fucking problem, A big one. I mean Roe v Wade being overturned out of any religious group. The only one in favor of that happening were white Protestant evangelicals, and they got it done. So this is not people who are committed to democracy or pluralism. They have no problem ruling as a minority. If they get the power, that's important, okay. So yes, this is a major, freaking problem.
Speaker 2:Trump is riding Christian nationalism. This is why he was able to get power in 2016. This is why he's fighting like hell to try and get it again in 2024. And I'm at the point, personally, where I will work with anyone, conservative or Democrat or whoever, to make sure that Trump never gets in office again, like I have no problem saying listen, let's spit handshake on this so we can have a democracy to argue about this later on, and let's just make sure this guy doesn't get elected, and then we'll go back to our normal arguments. You know, because you have to think that dire I mean in 20, in 40 years the man inside of the mob that tried to literally stop our election certification process Think about that for a minute. That's unprecedented. And now there's a right wing media empire that has resided his bullshit talking points for six years, or, sorry, for several years. I should say. 2016 was when all this stuff really started going down. So, yeah, yeah, this is a major issue. To your point.
Speaker 2:What do we do? I mean, this is always the question, right? What do we do? It depends on who you are.
Speaker 2:First off, I will say, as a white person, I think that we have an obligation to push for good faith, conversation with our fellow family members or people who are Christian nationalists, trying to persuade. Let's get one thing clear we don't change people's minds by screaming at them. I'm not sure about you, miles, but my perspective is from being a nonaffirming person who thought that being gay was sinful to now having thinking the opposite. I was not changed by being screamed at on the internet. Being called a bigoted asshole was never compelling for me to change my mind. It was people's stories. It was people who were putting in the work with me, people who held space for me that planted enough seeds to change this.
Speaker 2:So I think, first, on a local, interpersonal level, we have to be willing to do that when we can. How do we get people to see things differently? How do we ask compelling questions? On a societal level, though, I mean, we have to look at who's running in your local town. Look at who's running in politics, you know, in the 20. Wow, my dates are always messed up, but what was the most recent? The 2018 midterms? Was that that? Yeah, you know, was that long ago now. Holy moly, yeah, it feels like yesterday. What was it? No, it had to be 2020. 2020. 2020, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, 2020. Wow, sorry, okay, in the 2020 midterms that we had at, 1.60% of the Republican candidates were an election denier. Now most of them got shut down. They weren't voted in, which is great, but, like you should be aware of like who's running for president and your local office. And the last thing I'll say is if you're someone who's in the church, who's in like the White Evangelical Church, I believe you have an obligation to do your best to educate your pastor on what's going on.
Speaker 2:The average pastor, I don't think, really understands how dire the situation is. They're not aware of groups like Turning Point USA that are targeting White Evangelical Churches, stirring up pastors and congregants to take back the country for God, and I think that a lot of the people who want to do good, the ones who don't want to capitulate on their values, need to be made aware of what they're actually swimming in and they need to be told that the reality is, statistically speaking, if you're a White Evangelical pastor overseeing a largely White congregation, your congregation is a better disciple of Tucker Carlson than they are of Jesus at this point. That's just the data. That's who has the ear of White Evangelicals, you know. So I just think this is very much a full-court press, approaching it on every different level to do what we can to push things forward. Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 1:So you personally, coming off of 2016, you're able to kind of take social media and have it be almost a way to help you deconstruct. What do you think would happen? Do you feel like you'd be in the same situation if we didn't have social media or things that we can connect as much? What would we have done? You feel like, Because it feels like it's been therapeutic for you, I have to imagine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's tough, I would say. I've always been what I call renegotiating my faith, since I was like 19, critiquing the church in some way, shape or form. I think in 2016, it really started speeding up with something is wrong, and then, in 2020, when I started the work of the New Evangelicals, the floodgates opened. All the holes were in the dam and then, eventually, the whole thing just broke. I'm like, okay, I'm just all in.
Speaker 2:Social media, I think, is a double edged sword. In the beginning, it was definitely cathartic and helpful, and it still is now, but now I'm more on the content creator, now I'm running a nonprofit, so now I'm actually one of the people trying to help other people who were where I was five, six, seven, eight years ago. I think one of the problems with the Internet, though, is People need real friends. People need people who are in their life, who really know them, and that is the internet is not a place for that. It's impossible. Like you know, I try and be as transparent as possible. I try and be as open as possible, but still like people can create their own versions of themselves behind a screen. It's not hard to do, and when you turn off the phone, like who's in your life, who's coming over for dinner, who's in proximity to you.
Speaker 2:So I think the internet is really important right now. I think it's really needed for people who are just clinging to anything, trying to find a place where they can at least feel heard, you know. But long term, the question I'm asking is how do we help those people find community again, how do we help them find real relationships and friendships that are hey, bestie, I'm gonna go to a Target you wanna join? Yeah, I'm coming, you know. Instead of I have to go online and find someone like me or someone else who's making content for you to consume, which hopefully helps. But I think it's just one piece of the bigger picture.
Speaker 1:More of a jumping off point.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and maybe like information point. Oh, I was. You know, one benefit of podcasting, right, as you know, is that you get to talk to people who you would never talk to either in person, because you're not in proximity to them, or you just wouldn't intersect with. I mean, I've had the privilege, I'm sure, like you, to interview people that I've dreamt about, like, oh my God, I'm talking to so-and-so, like I have so many questions, right, and then hopefully the audience is listening and they go, wow, I feel heard. Or, oh, this is really informative. Oh, this changes my perspective on something. Oh, I feel more equipped to understand what's going on regarding issue ABCDRE. So I think that people like us have a real role to play in how we push things forward, but we it cannot be all on our backs, because it's an impossible ask, because people need more than just this. They need people to water the seeds, they need people to cultivate, you know, their well-being and vice versa, because one of my concerns in the online space is that you know, I talk a lot about how you can replicate harmful systems and just put a new facade over it. Right, you can say I hate mega-church while creating your own mega-church style brand, where Guru Tim always has the answers to everything and is just trying to always go viral and wants to be treated like a celebrity, right? That's really dangerous. So on an organizational level, we put a lot of barriers in place to really make sure that that doesn't happen. That, like the brand of Tim, is in the thing. However, on the other side of that are people who have been taught to consume from other people all the time. Right, Like people.
Speaker 2:For a mega-church pastor to be a mega-church pastor, you have to have an audience who will sit and soak it up and think that this person can do no wrong. Who can think that this person is their Guru, right? So I think what's tricky is it's easier for me to say I don't wanna be a mega-church guy, I don't wanna be a celebrity or content creator, I just wanna be me. But it's harder to tell people hey, I can't control you putting me in a place. I'm telling you don't put me right, I can't control, but I'm asking you not to treat me like a larger than life figure, cause that's not who I'm trying to be at all and I'm telling you I cannot be that in your life. So I think that is the tricky part, too, is I wanna get people the ability to go fishing themselves so they can start helping someone else and not just be dependent upon other content, always in order to survive. If that makes sense, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:When you started to undertaking this. I mean, how was it scary for you? Cause I mean it sounds you talk about, you know, going to Europe and like it sounds like you've always had this open mind and like are willing to have your mind change while still maintaining that core faith. I mean, but was it scary like stepping outside the box and being like like I had to choose literally like stay a part of this church and be the drummer or go this new direction?
Speaker 2:Oh, it was fucking terrifying. I mean, I'm a type six on the Enneagram, so fear is just a core motivator for everything that I do. You know, like I am a huge scaredy cat. I don't do horror movies, I don't do haunted houses, like I don't wanna be scared, I prefer not to be scared. You know, I have health anxiety sometimes, like I'm just naturally a very fearful person. And even, yeah, going to Europe was definitely a big undertaking.
Speaker 2:And, yes, when I started TNE, I was scared. I was absolutely scared, not so much of like, oh well, will I lose my community that happened later on. It was more of like what if this thing fails? Like what if I do it? And then I stop and I just have egg on my face, Like oh, there's Tim or buddy who tried to be the new evangelicals. Like what a joke. You know, like that was scary. But I had someone actually online who I connected with, who I became friendly with, who was like dude, like just do it, like just pull the trigger. And I was like, but what if this, what if that is? And he's like, just do it, man. Like he said what's the worst case? He doesn't want to take off and like you just do it as a hobby, like, okay, that's fine. I was like I guess you're right. So, yeah, I was terrified.
Speaker 2:And then when, yeah, when my church put me in that position, I wasn't so much scared at that point. I was like four months into this and we grew so quickly, like you know, we went from 1,000 to 10,000 followers in like three months and it was so many DMs, so many people like, oh my God, this is so helpful. You know, this content is helping me, know I'm not alone. So I knew that, like something important was happening and that we were helping people. Well, I should just say me.
Speaker 2:It was just me at the time. We had no volunteers, no, nothing. It was just me on Instagram. And I knew that, as much as I love drumming and I still play today professionally, in a different context but as much as I love to drum and as much as I love being on stage and, like you know, nerding out on gear, this was much more important work. So I couldn't. I couldn't stop it, just so I can keep playing drums on the stage, you know. So that wasn't so much scary more than painful, and that's essentially what went down to how it happened.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's a really good point. It's a painful versus scary. So you mentioned, you know, the loss of a community, I mean. So what was the reaction? First of all, what was the church saying, like, what was their comeback to you? Basically just asking questions, because that's all it was at that point, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, you know I did my best to. First of all, I was a volunteer at my church. I wasn't even on staff. I didn't break any of the rules in the handbook. I didn't. I wasn't like some kind of moral failing. I was online, like you said, asking questions and I don't think that that they liked the questions I was asking or they were concerned about maybe some of my conclusions. Right, like I was starting to, you know, really, question like, why aren't we including the queer community? Like is being gay really sinful? Maybe I'm not so convinced and I think that scared them. I think that they were concerned about my influence on other kids in, like their youth group or something I don't know. And also, you know, to this day, to this day, I have never told people what church it was. They don't know who it is. I had never talked about my church online only to say I only talked about them if they were doing good stuff, like hey, my church handled COVID really well, you know. But to this day there's been no one knows what church it is.
Speaker 2:So you know, when that conversation happened between me and my senior pastor, it was like oh, like well, we've had some talks before this, I think, about my internet presence. They were always kind of concerned. But yeah, I've always been on Facebook. I've had a podcast before this. I've always been in small amounts, like very nothing on this scale, you know. Maybe a podcast got a few hundred downloads or you know whatever it was with being somebody who's just kind of goofing off talking about this stuff. But yeah, I've had a few times where the pastor pulled me in about like what I said on Facebook or what I said here. So there were a few talks before that, but nothing that was like you can't be here anymore serving with us. So when that talk happened, you know, I shook his hand, I said thank you for everything and that was the last time I talked. I saw him. We talked over the weekend and my worship pastor wasn't part of the meeting. That's a whole different conversation. But long story short, within you know, a month, 90% of those friendships that I built were just completely gone, like people just stopped texting and stopped reaching out or they left me on red even when I reached out. There are four people, five people that I still talk to, who I consider good friends, who have just been amazing through all of that when it happened. But, yeah, I was back in therapy. I was saying fuck a lot, I had a lot of anger. I felt a complete injustice.
Speaker 2:I was doing a lot of really life-giving work with that church as a drummer. We were doing this multi-church worship night once every eight weeks. That grew to like 600 people in 40 different churches and I loved that. I love unity and I was kind of helping. I was on the leadership team kind of blowing that up. We had plans of like maybe recording an album. I was in that worship space loving it. We played Creation Festival. It was wonderful and that just over text, I was told, hey, you no longer. Because you resigned from your position at the church, you can no longer be doing this either. And it was just like, holy shit, like are you over text? Like six years of being all in with you guys doing everything, tithing, giving a drum set to the church, spending countless hours as a volunteer that I happily digs. I loved it so much and I get a text message about this thing that I poured so much love, sweat and tears into. So yeah, it was very painful.
Speaker 1:Man, that's tough what I mean. I don't know how personal you want to get, but what's been the reaction from family?
Speaker 2:Well, my dad was at the January 6th insurrection. Oh wow, Holy cow.
Speaker 2:Yep. So he was there. He went there to see Trump speak. I don't think he was involved in any of the actual violence, but he went there to see him speak.
Speaker 2:My mom and dad we don't really talk about this work. I think that deep down they're kind of freaked out. Or my dad thinks I'm like I'm actually not sure what he thinks. We don't really talk about it. My partner is super supportive. My wife is great. My brother and sister are really like Christians. But my brother and I are like best friends. I see him all the time. They live 10 minutes down the road and he listens to a lot of the stuff that I do, just because he wants to.
Speaker 2:But yeah, as far as parents and stuff go, we have kids now. They are amazing grandparents and my wife and I just made a decision like, if it comes down to relationship or losing the relationship, we want to try and save it and be as close to them as we can be while still having some boundaries in place. Frankly, they do respect our boundaries really well. They don't bring anything up. They're really good about the grandkids. They always ask us for permission for things. So we're very fortunate. I know many people in our space who have parents or in-laws who are just like you're going to hell. We're not going to respect your boundaries, so I'm quite fortunate in that respect.
Speaker 1:That's awesome, because I feel like that's kind of the goal of what you're trying to do is, we can disagree on politics or religion, but it doesn't have to be so visceral and we can so coexist.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I live in attention there because, on one hand yeah, definitely On one hand, as an organization, as a person, I refuse to dehumanize people. We don't do that. If you see our content, there's never a name calling. We don't call people pieces of garbage. We don't call Trump the orange man. We just stay away from all that.
Speaker 2:I think that dehumanization ultimately puts us on the path to violence and we want to stop that. Also, I will talk to anyone, and I have. I mean, I've been in Christian nationalist spaces. I've been at Charlie Kirk events. I've met the people who run those organizations. They still talk to me sometimes. I keep those doors open because of two reasons. Number one, then I have a pulse on what's actually happening in those spaces and I'm not misrepresenting what they're saying. But number two, I hope that they realize that if we can rehumanize the conversation, it might change the type of content that they're putting out.
Speaker 2:Now, that's one side, but the other side is that I'm a white cis man. That's easy for me to say Turning Point. Usa isn't targeting me because I'm straight. They're targeting queer people. Black people in this country have to deal with police violence that I've never had to even think about.
Speaker 2:So there is a tension of, yes, we don't want to dehumanize, we want to hold space for people we strongly disagree with. Also, we have to draw boundaries somewhere and our organization has to be able to make stands and say things that will oppose people in those spaces who are doing what we think is harmful work. So it definitely is a tension. It's a balancing act. So far we've been able to navigate it pretty well.
Speaker 2:How I've seen it is that I'm using my own privilege to speak to people who other people groups should not need to speak to.
Speaker 2:But I can do it and I can try and advocate for the people that we are trying to represent, the people that we're trying to help, and hopefully give those people on the other side a more humanized version of this deconstruction thing or of the filthy liberals who are demonic. It's like actually we're human beings and we have real concerns. And also, if I can get you to talk to me and I can approach you with curiosity, I have a better chance of changing your mind than just calling you a fucking asshole who's trying to ruin the country. So I think that's kind of the tension that I'm always thinking about and making sure that I'm not putting that expectation on other people who should not need to have that expectation put on them because they're not a white man. Frankly, right, the country is built for people like me and you to succeed as much as possible. It's not really that way for black folks, right, or for black women, or for black queer women or for queer people, so we try and balance it as much as we can.
Speaker 1:Well said, well said. How did you maintain faith throughout this entire process, like how do you still believe in God?
Speaker 2:That was the easiest part, really. Oh yeah, you know, I tell people and everyone. Let me just preface to your audience. If that's not you, that's fine, I totally get it. I'm not here to tell you what you need to do or not to do, but I will tell you.
Speaker 2:For me, like I never had a real like does God exist? I never even had a faith crisis. I had a theology crisis, very different. Right, I had a crisis of what do I believe about God? Not do I believe if God exists or not. For me, that ship sailed a long time ago.
Speaker 2:I'm not claiming to have the objective proof that God does or doesn't exist. I get it's murky. I get that there very well could be a God who doesn't exist. I just have found that, for me, the belief in God, the belief in following the way of Jesus, has given me a lot of life and has been a beautiful thing and has helped me see in the world in more beautiful ways. It's given me a lot of meaning. I understand how folks would see the opposite. I get the problems with Christianity, I get the problems with religion. You don't have to tell me twice, you know. But yeah, I was never someone who was like well, God, are you even real? Do you exist? It was like no, I believe it. It's more about now. What do I believe about God? What do I believe about the Bible? What do I believe about Jesus? That was the. Those were the bigger questions I was asking myself.
Speaker 1:So you're obviously very well read. I have a list of all the books that you mentioned. I'm gonna have to like go through and educate myself. But through this process and knowing you know, you said to yourself you know that never really came up whether or not God was real, did it ever come up of? Maybe Christianity Isn't real for me, maybe God exists in a different form and a different religious construction. Like, was that ever a thought?
Speaker 2:First off, I do think that you know wherever a person is, their God is. I definitely think that God is bigger than my own Christian paradigms. For sure, that ship has that ship's still a while ago for me, but no, no, for me. I was always like here's how I see it, and again to your audience, not telling you how to see it, I'm just telling you how I see it. I like to over clarify that so people don't get the wrong idea.
Speaker 2:I love it. You know, for me, I essentially grew up in the basement of a massive tradition that spans 2000 years, thousands of cultures, thousands of theologians and people thinking about all these things. I don't think it's fair for me to say I'm out of the whole thing, because I grew up in a really stinky part that told me this was all there was. Now I'm more like holy shit. This thing is so much more complicated and beautiful and messy than I ever thought, and there are theologians who exist now, who exist in the past, who have some way more appealing ways of thinking about Jesus and the cross and the God of all things, that I still find much beauty and help in the Christian tradition.
Speaker 2:It's just not so much that white, evangelical, fundamentalist space of you're a filthy worm. If you don't pray this prayer, you're gonna burn in hell forever, turns out that's not the only Christian response to God or the problem of evil, or hell or the afterlife, and so for me, I am only exploring more of the rooms now, you know, and just like, yeah, I really have no desire to leave. Some people get above ground for the first time and they run straight out the fucking door because they've had such legitimate abuse and trauma in that basement, to which I say I completely get it and I wish you the best and we are rooting for you, because there are plenty of houses on the block you know that I'm sure you can find yourself in. That will promote your human flourishing, so do whatever you gotta do.
Speaker 1:I love that analogy. That's really well stated To that point, how you mentioned you have kids. How many kids do you have? Two, two kids, and how old are they? Three and one Got it. So getting to the point now where, like, they're becoming real people with real personalities and stuff Wow, whoever thought I'd be a dad? Right, we don't have kids, we have a couple of dogs and that's enough for us now. But I can only imagine how do you, with your background, how do you and your partner you say your wife, right? How do you and your wife plan on talking to them about religion? Or how do you talk to them about religion now?
Speaker 2:Honestly, we don't talk to them about religion. They're too young to really even understand it. But number two no freaking idea, none, none. I have no advice, I have no thoughts. I literally don't. I don't know. My wife and I talk about it often. We are in different places in our own spiritual life. I don't think she would identify as a Christian anymore. What do we do with that? I mean, I don't know, but we both agree, like we just are not sure the best way forward. Yet I think our bigger concern is what happens when I have to tell my parents please don't give my kid a Bible, please don't pray a prayer with him. You know, that's what I'm more concerned about at this point. But I think we'll cross that bridge when we get there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a that's a tough one. Yeah, I'm always interested, though, with parents because there's for me, like in my journey, it's like there's there's so many options now because I was, so I was in that basement, like you said, for so long. Now there's like so many things and it's like when we have kids, like where do you even begin with that Right, if you don't have like a structured belief?
Speaker 2:I'm fascinated by that question.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you ever figure that out, hit me up.
Speaker 2:I mean, the only thing I really have is teaching them that at the center of the world that I've all being is a, is a divine love that will hold them forever. You know, that's all I really got. You know just something about love and being held and being cared for and taken care of, and hopefully my wife and I can emulate that. You know and they can get that, but that's about as far as I've gotten.
Speaker 1:Sure, that's fair last question for you, Unless it leads us down a different road. But what? What is the overall Structure of the New Evangelicals like? If you were to describe this to somebody that had didn't even know? Like what Tiktok or Instagram was like? What is the the thing like? What's the the thing that we're trying to do and how are you guys going about it?
Speaker 2:We are a Marxist organization trying to take over the world from Marxism and I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1:We are. That's the top clip we just love.
Speaker 2:Satan. So much you know. And yeah, I mean essentially, here's what we are. We're a nonprofit organization, which means that we're a Jesus-centered, inclusive community that holds space, space for folks who are marginalized by the evangelical church, advocates for evangelical accountability and helps you to explore the Christian tradition beyond the basement of fundamentalism. Those are the three things that we do. We're all online. There's no physical location. We do that through a myriad of ways. We can hold space for people by we have a private Facebook community or people can just kind of express what they're being going through and in be held, as long as you follow the group rules of rules. Of course.
Speaker 2:We do a lot of content tracking Christian nationalism or this story or that story. And then our podcast is Probably the most concentrated place of like hey, here's this scholar of you know process theology which says essentially that God can't stop evil and that God is like the flashlight in the dark room. And we're kind of going along, let's unpack that and see how that compares to our old view of God's all powerful and the problem of evil. It just is God willed it, you know. So like that's kind of how we approach this.
Speaker 2:But yeah, we put, we are pretty wide and we are thinking about, especially as the organization has kind of grown and kind of taken on a life of its Own. You know, how do we kind of scale this in a healthy way? How do we continue to help people keep that porch light on, so to speak, so people know that that, hey, you're not alone? And we're kind of working through that now as an organization. We became a nonprofit legally in March of 2022 and they backdated it for a few months, so we're not like super old as an organization, and I did not mean to start a nonprofit, it just kind of happened, and I'm not a nonprofit guru. So certainly there's a lot of learning to be had, sure.
Speaker 1:What I mean ideally, like say two years from now, like where would you want to see the, the org be?
Speaker 2:I really a Big focus that I am thinking about is how do we help create a unified coalition of content voices To really help push back against these really harmful narratives given to us by right wing media. What I mean by that is not that, oh, how do we become just as volatile and angry and dehumanizing as they do, but more, how do we bring a hose to the mud pit and start cleaning some of this shit off, because it's really affecting people? So I really want to scale the content side and really get beyond just me making content and really have a group of people While pulling other experts and scholars in and saying, okay, listen, you have a great message, but you don't know how to communicate it to an online audience. We can help you do that. We will format this in a five minute like YouTube video. That will just kick ass and and have your expertise out there. So I think that's really a big part of where I want to head the next two years.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Final question, cli, I think just pop up my brain.
Speaker 3:I know, I question.
Speaker 1:So there's, there's people that I know, that you know went to my church even growing up, that Are struggling with the same sorts of things. But the thing that is keeping them where they are today Meaning they're their church, that they're, you know, saying that they grew up at is the sense of community. How, what would be your recommendation for somebody like that, because I mean, you've mentioned the word community a lot, which I think is awesome. How do you Get out of the community that you're in and into a community that you want to be in, when you've been doing it for 30, 40, 50 plus years?
Speaker 2:Yeah, community is, I think, an overused word. I overuse it all the time and it's loaded. I think that we really romanticize community, right? Oh, I just need people who will just be like, made in my image. It's almost like.
Speaker 2:You know, I am 34 and before I met my partner, I did some online dating and stuff. You know, and when you, when you do that and you have someone sell number and you're texting back and forth, you know how like you can create your own image of that person and then you meet them, you're like, oh my god, this is so different than what I imagined, how you would say these things. Right? And I think we can do that with this idea of Community. We can just create these people in our head that are gonna, just, you know, be perfect and altruistic and never get out of nerves, never make mistakes and never do stupid shit, or that we're never gonna be Responsible for harming someone, right?
Speaker 2:But community, like, takes a lot of work and a lot of tensionality. So, you know, I don't really have like the best answer except to say, wherever you end up going, just know that you'll have to put the work in and you could get hurt again. Like for us to really participate in community again. It means we have to open ourselves back up to potentially getting hurt again and I get why some people don't want to risk that. It's, it's painful. I know the pain, I totally get it. It's Incredibly painful. But I don't see a better way forward as humans, or as as Are or as people in this cultural moment, then risking that again to form deeper, better communities that hopefully help push things forward Cool.
Speaker 1:Love that If people like. Where would you suggest people go first for to find your content? Did you prefer the, the website? You for the tic-tac Instagram?
Speaker 2:I'm probably most active on Instagram. Our podcast is pretty, pretty slamming. There's a lot of content there, but in excuse me, instagram is where I do the most like day-to-day Story updates. You know, check this thing out, I'm covering the story tic-tac. I post a lot of content. I'm not super active in like even the DMs. I I'm like, oh shit, this was like four months ago, sorry bro. And then, yeah, we have like a YouTube account now we're doing a lot of you like long-form YouTube videos. So anywhere that that the new evangelicals is, we are got it.
Speaker 1:I'm just looking up your handle. So it's at the new evangelicals on Instagram and it's new evangelicals comm as well. Awesome, awesome, tim. Thank you so much for doing this man. I know you're a busy dude. Fascinating conversation. I hope we can keep in touch. Yeah, absolutely Thanks for having me, miles. I really appreciate it. Likewise Thanks to get a Tim for coming on. I can't thank him enough for doing that, cuz I just reached out to him out of the blue, so it was awesome looking at that conversation.
Speaker 1:Now, as promised, a sneak peek into episode three where I talked to a good buddy, joe Ross. So a little background. Joe, I think you're the first person that I've had on this podcast that has gone to, that went to the same church that I grew up in. That wasn't a family member, so it's gonna be an interesting conversation because you're not affiliated with that church any longer. You've had your own spiritual journey, which is extremely interesting, so I'm excited to get into that.
Speaker 1:But I think the the biggest thing that I wanted to first start off with was that you are a very caring person. I remember when my dad was going through his struggles Kind of the first round of alcoholism and has problems with some other things. You were the like. The first person that showed up and like would take me out golf in, you would take me out to lunch. He was like, hey, man, how you doing. So it's just awesome to talk to somebody that, no matter what the, we might not be at the same points in our faith journey, but it's just so cool to talk to somebody that, like I knew, always had my back, even as a kid, so I appreciate you having the willingness to do this.
Speaker 3:I still have your back now. I promise I Love, I love your father like a brother. I still do. I'm sad that Our lives have taken us in different directions and I don't seem, saw him a few years ago at pumpkin fest and and it was like like greeting an old friend, but the conversation ended abruptly and and it was, you know, we kind of went our separate ways. But I keep telling myself I should reach out. I know he's still golf's, you know. Hey, man, you want to go, you want to go golf, you want to go? You know, have breakfast. And, like you and I spoke, life gets in the way, you know the symptoms of adulthood.
Speaker 1:I mean you have a very interesting journey and one how to Really really excited to hear about what excited might be the wrong word, but just intrigued. So I mean talk about how you grew up, because you grew up in a completely different religion.
Speaker 3:I did. I Passed through a couple of forms. So I was born in Camden, south Carolina, and I was raised in a predominantly southern Baptist family. So there was no card playing, there was no rock and roll music, there were no games of chance. There was, you know it was. It was a pretty straightforward and and stayed life. I Did not like it, but I was a child, right. So what child likes being forced to go to church every Sunday and dress up. And after church we went to Oma's house for a picnic and food and Oma was a, a very staunch German woman, didn't speak a lot of English, loved smacking me in the back of the head with a with a wooden spoon very much child abuse as we know it now, but at that time it was abuse that was delivered with love, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 3:All I know is I didn't care for it and I but Little did I know Life was gonna throw me a curveball. And that was when I was about seven. My mom found the Jehovah's Witnesses and Boy oh boy did I went to from not wanting to go to church on Sundays to not wanting to go to church on Sundays, tuesdays or Thursdays, and not wanting to go door-to-door on Saturdays and not wanting to go door-to-door on Sundays after church. It was a constant and I mean constant Pressure in our, in our lives.
Speaker 1:That's next time I'm finding my religion. As a reminder, please make sure to subscribe, rate and review wherever you get your podcast. It helps other people find this show, so we would really, really appreciate it. Also, if you don't follow us on Instagram or Facebook or even tiktok, we would also appreciate that. Just search finding my religion podcast and hopefully will come up. If not, at least you try. See you next time, you you?
